I didn’t mean for this post to cause a bunch of arguing in the comments =(
I thought this was just some gallows humor (e.g. “Everything’s lovely except that I have to fear for my safety all the time”) type of shitpost that sounded similar to comments I’ve heard from women irl a lot.
I’m tired of feeling alienated for being male. I’m tired of the default consideration for what a man is being a rapist and a murderer; someone dangerous not to be implicitly trusted; someone you should own a gun to protect yourself from. I’m tired of being labelled a cis man because saying just man would imply that trans men could ever be monsters like us. I go out wearing a skirt and heels and I am trusted, women approach me, give me compliments, ask me for directions. I go out without shaving and am embraced by callousness. If I could ask one thing, if you wouldn’t be comfortable using the word “brother,” “father,” “son,” “boyfriend” or “husband,” don’t use the word “man” or “men.” Use another word. A murderer doesn’t have to be tied to their gender.
Imagine if you had to deal with actually being targeted as a minority or woman. You’d be so mad, dude.
I’m a guy who dresses like a girl. I get cat called, threatened to be raped and then called a faggot and thrown into a position where I have to physically defend myself. Yet as you have so eloquently shown people who aren’t horny for me, see me as a man first. My privilege is assumed and as such I am not granted the community that the above white woman automatically receives. I am fucking mad. You’re looking at injustice passively, like it’s my fault.
Where is your fucking anger?
I’m not angry at women for fearing violent abuse from men. I think you’re misdirecting this A LOT. If as a person you hear ‘‘men might kill me’’ and you think ‘‘poor poor men, why can’t they catch a break’’ your problem isn’t passive adittudes to bigotry, it’s having no idea that other people have problems and fears and threats and they are as upset about them as you would be in their shoes.
My problem is going up to men and proclaiming “men might kill me” and expecting that to go over well. Like let me just walk up to someone transgender and exclaim “transgender people might rape my children.” That is objectively such a horrific thing to say. But no one cares when you say it about men. Because a man obviously will actually kill you 🙄
How many examples are there of trans people raping children?
How many examples of men raping women are there?
I’m a male and I’m not getting wounding up about this. Grow up.
At least one of each. Both are ridiculous statements drawn up by the delusional to push an agenda. You are getting wound up about me defending men due to a ridiculous statement in the same way I am getting wound up about a ridiculous statement that “others” men.
I just think you sound a bit silly mate.
Yeah, fair. It’s hard when you care about something
Men, statistically, actually might kill you. Transgender people, statistically, aren’t going to rape your kids. You’re including yourself when women talk about negative experiences from men when you don’t have to. Again, men ≠ all men including you.
Statistically you won’t be killed by a man for walking alone at night. Just as statistically your kids won’t be raped by a transgender person. For some reason you are okay with the former though not the later. You are okay with this because you don’t care about men. Those people are less to you. I don’t like that. I think it’s wrong.
Statistically, the number of transgender people who are going to rape your kids is fuckin’ none. The chances of you being murdered at night are slim but a lot less slim, enough so that everyone (but especially women as they’re often the targets of sexual violence) have to have to take it into consideration, and the ones doing it are almost entirely men. It becomes even less slim and downright common if you substitute murder with any other violence-based verb.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-64796926
I know it’s hard for you to believe but transgender people are just people. They are capable of rape. There are countless rape cases you can find if you want to. But you don’t want to.
You dress like a girl, experience what most female-presenting people experience, and you still don’t fucking understand. Amazing. Tell me, was it women cat calling you and threatening to rape you? Or was it other men? If so, this bigotry wasn’t bigotry against men, it was bigotry against a man who isn’t masculine enough for other men’s standards. Bigotry against a man thought to be a woman by other men. The problem once again remains toxic masculinity manifested in men, or to put it simply, men.
I’m angry for the discrimination you’ve experienced, but I’m not directing it toward women who are speaking about experiencing the same things you have at the hands of men, the way you are in this thread.
Your problem is that you are assuming when we say “men” we’re including you and literally every other man in existence. Words have meanings and there’s a reason why we’re not specifically using “all.”
You’re not going to be treated well for being feminine-presenting until misogyny is defeated, and that isn’t going to happen until guys like you stop being dismissive of women’s experiences because you get defensive on behalf of all men for no fucking reason.
I don’t blame men for it because it’s not mens fault it’s that fuckers fault. You don’t understand and you don’t even want to. I don’t blame women for harassing me and refusing service to me when I’m trying to buy clothes. You know who I blame. I blame that fucker.
By choosing to ignore that men are the primary offenders of violence not just against women but in general, only viewing it as an individual failings, we won’t be able to make any progress toward remedying the actual problem at hand. Men are socialized under patriarchy, it gives many of them (not all of them and I’m tired of having to say this) a poor sense of emotional regulation and an even poorer view of women as equal human beings who are deserving of fair treatment. You’re the one who doesn’t want to understand, and your point of view services the unjust status quo that thinks that crime should be addressed after it’s committed rather than addressing the social conditions of the source.
It’s as though you’re plugging your ears and pretending inequality between men and women, and the issues that stem from that don’t exist.
By alienating men and refusing to listen to them they have been driven to the right. It’s so easy to empathise with the issues facing men because they are the issues facing everyone. Your misplaced blame to men is akin to the typical right wing bigots misplaced blame to transgender people and minorities. They will use statistics to back up the claims they make and you will see through their attempts but then do the same thing to men and be unable to see the contradiction. I’m sorry that you can’t, and never will, see further than your own narrow experience. I am pessimistic because of people like you. You are the indoctrinated right winger, a parallel track that insists it runs in a different direction.
Men are being driven to the right because of propagandists like you parroting MRA and incel rhetoric that is designed to appear empathetic toward men’s issues (which are often everyone’s issues under the current status quo being presented as men-only issues) while steering them away from understanding the roots of (patriarchy) and solutions to (feminism) the problem.
If right wingers used statistics they wouldn’t come to the conclusions they do because reality has a left wing bias and statistics don’t back up their claims.
I don’t even know what those acronyms mean. Is it so hard to believe people you are alienating are finding community elsewhere. Is this conspiracy of yours really worth it.
I’m sorry it bothers you like that.
I personally don’t feel alienated or attacked at all by the kinds of comments you are describing. When I see a comment like “men murder women”, I think of it in the same kind of way comments like “humans are horrible” or “Australians are racist” or “young people have no attention span”… That is to say it describes a trend or someone’s perception of a tendency but does not refer to any specific individual.
People aren’t saying these things to attack you. They are saying them to communicate their own feelings of being unsafe. And to be frank, feeling that you shouldn’t go for a walk at night because it is too dangerous is a pretty serious thing which has obvious negative effects - and the concern is based in reality. It isn’t just a perception problem. So we should take these comments seriously - not just complain about the people saying them.
How do you feel when someone says women are whores, Germans are Nazis or Africans are slaves? I feel offended and outraged. I don’t care if there are women who work as prostitutes, that most Nazis were Germans and that the trans-atlantic slave trade systematically enslaved a culture group. It’s irrelevant. You’re discriminating and dehumanising these people. But in these times it’s normal to hear men are trash, they’re rapists, they murder. So people are numb to it. They don’t care about it. They will justify it by insisting men are of a position of privilege. That all men intentionally built a patriarchal society to indulge themselves. The men I know are just people. They want change. They are being alienated and that alienation drives them towards those that actually are the thing people claim men are.
I think you said it well “we should take these comments seriously - not just complain about the people saying them.” I just wish people would say it about men.
You are not alone in feeling that. Everyone being angry about this in here probably feels the same. And it’s incredibly ingenuine to on one hand say this post communicates feelings about fear of going outside and/or men, while simultaneously dismissing feelings of anger at being called a murderer.
My own comment being dismissive of this post (because it’s a shitpost, that’s the literal community here) was deleted.
Another one where I say “women lie” is being downvoted and it was (softly) implied I’m a murderer for saying this (The comment says “You are the man we are afraid of”, context is “men like to murder” as of the OP). The reply and votes to the “women lie” one means people do in fact notice that an overgeneralization hurts. They just don’t care if it hurts men. Presumably because “men are murderers” and are thus not allowed a voice besides belittling themselves.
It’s just sad.
I made a reply to blind3rdeye where I mirrored some of your sentiments. I have a hard time finding mutual empathy with people. When anyone talks about the unique pain of belonging to certain groups I try my hardest to trust them. I do this because of how much dismissiveness there is of men’s issues.
I get that. I found myself on the side of vegans after a post mocked them for being a vegan while the nature they’re protecting is not, and comments then clowning on the vegans that showed up. “How do you know they’re vegan? They’ll tell you.” Kind of stuff. I’m not vegan but I really don’t like this kind of baiting.
My comments were way better received then.
I like what you wrote in the other comment, btw.
the thing is, nobody here is being dismissive of men’s issues, because this thread is not a conversation about men’s issues. men are coming in here and dismissing women’s issues.
you guys never seem to talk about this on your own accord, but rather only when it’s to bring down women for talking about the realities they face. it makes it difficult to believe that any of you here sincerely care about what you claim to.
You are under a comment about my experience and feelings. I am a man. These are my feelings as a man. People are very publicly dismissing them. You can’t just banish injustices towards people you don’t want to think about away to somewhere else.
E: that said a mod eventually will show up and do just that
yes, a comment about your experiences and feelings as a man under a thread about women’s experiences. i’m staying on the topic hand.
i shouldn’t have to explain to you why going “okay but what about men” every time women talk about their experiences is problematic and dismissive.
My comment is about the woman blaming men for being scared to go out at night. It’s directly related to the topic at hand. I am dismissive not of this woman’s experience, that is being scared to go out at night, but of her claim that this is men’s fault. I think men are right to be pissed at being blamed for this.
Men are at fault though. Women aren’t the ones attacking women, men are. Almost entirely. Who are they therefore supposed to blame so that your fee-fees don’t get hurt? And for the last fucking time, “men” doesn’t mean all men including you.
If you’re not referring to men don’t say men. Women do attack women. It happens. My point is that it would be illogical and sexist to blame women for this.
the difference is your generalization isn’t based in statistical fact. women who lie about false rape accusations (i assume that’s what you’re trying to get at here) are such an unfathomably small minority that no man ever has to live their life considering it. by saying that this is something women in do in equivalence to what women are saying men do, you’re implying otherwise and implying the authenticity of countless women’s experiences with sexual violence at the hands of men is invalid. experiences which are already seldom believed by the people who need to hear it.
on the other hand, a substantial amount of women experience sexual violence from men. it’s statistically common enough that women have to live in fear and that conventional wisdom has long held that women should not go out at night alone, carry mace, etc. etc. etc.
bottom line is, it’s a false equivalency that serves only to invalidate the reality women must face, and what you’re trying to equate it to is that reality. you are harming women by doing this.
it does not harm men to point out what a significant enough amount of them to be dangerous to women at large are doing. you are not personally affected by women saying that men are violent or murderers, but women are personally affected by your exaggerated claims of dishonesty when they speak out against this violence that they are statistically far more likely to experience.
Your assumption is yours to make, I was being deliberately ambiguous. My point was “men like murdering” sounds like a fact, but isn’t. Just as “women lie” sounds like a fact, but isn’t.
The OP isn’t, either. There is no difference. Both are damaging overgeneralizations. Even though more women (because its easier) do lie (again, ambiguous. Can be about how their food tasted) way more often than men do murder, both are damaging overgeneralizations. One more than the other.
Also:
You are referencing statistics. For the second time. Provide them.
No, you just feel like that. Me arguing that I don’t want to be called a murderer because of my penis is not a downplay of rape. You did that part all on your own.
That’s a lie. Also, how does that fit in with me harming women by pointing something out? We are talking about the sentence “men like murder”, which is rightfully being under fire. You could say this is a shitpost, but your comment is not.
Lie. Here you also try to justify the post as the truth. Just for future reference.
How? And how am I not affected by you denying my experience?
Are you talking about rape or murder? If you talk about murder, like the OP, that’s again a lie.
You, in particular, are not being called a murderer, because the OP clearly says “men” and not “all men.” You are however contributing to the problem by being dismissive and making a discussion about women’s safety about you, which is why women should be afraid of you since you are clearly self-serving and have no empathy for and understanding of their plight.
Please explain to me how women talking about violence from men affects you personally. I can tell you how exaggerating your claim is harmful toward women, since because of the disproportionate violence and sexual abuse they face from men, they often find themselves having to speak on their experiences, and often aren’t believed thanks to unfounded biases like yours.
The difference is that your claim is grossly exaggerated to appear equal to the OP’s claim, which actually has statistic validity. The OP’s only mistake is specifying murder, which isn’t the only threat of violence at the hands of men a woman would potentially (and has a good chance of having to) face walking alone at night, but anyone who isn’t 12 should be able to understand the use of hyperbole in a motherfucking shitpost. The intention is clear. it is not safe for women because of violence from men.
Here are the statistics: https://rainn.org/statistics/scope-problem, https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/table-42/table-42.xls, https://www.statista.com/statistics/251886/murder-offenders-in-the-us-by-gender/
You are using statistics inappropriately. You don’t understand the argument you are just trying to villainise men
whatever helps you sleep at night bro
This is sexism. This woman didn’t say “too bad recites national murder statistics exist.” She said men.
When you make a sweeping statement about women being dishonest in their accusations, this is unfounded. Men are statistically extremely unlikely to be falsely accused of sexual violence by a woman. A man does not need to consider women to be a potential threat.
When you make a sweeping statement about men being violent against women, this is not unfounded. Women are statistically very likely to experience violence from men. That doesn’t mean all or even a majority of men, but enough that women have to consider men to be a potential threat.
By trying to equate the two, you serve only to dismiss the credibility of very often real experiences from women. This harms women very much, especially in a society where they’re already seldom believed by the people who need to hear them, such as the authorities.
It is not sexism toward men to point out that men are the ones committing violence against women specifically, it’s a fact backed up by evidence. She said men because it’s not a woman who is realistically going to be a threat to her. Men ≠ all men. Also, the national murder statistics point to men specifically being the problem so I hardly see what the difference is.
If this woman said “too bad black people exist.” Would you rush to defend her with statistics. Stop being a hypocrite injustice is injustice doesn’t matter who does it or who they do it against.
No, because I also take into consideration the reasons for those statistics. Black people are demonstrably discriminated against and profiled by authorities, and are often suspected of, arrested and even convicted for crimes they did not commit.
The police, an entity dominated by men, do not unfairly discriminate against men. Men are actually committing these acts of violence against women, and we have non-police statistics that corroborate this, unlike the police statistics for racial minorities.
So you trust the institutions to deliver you news you agree with but not that you disagree with? Listen to yourself. How desperate are you to justify misplaced anger. Men aren’t the cause of your problems. And you won’t fix anything without them.
There is actual evidence of discrimination against racial minorities from the authorities, not discrimination against men, of whom the authorities are predominately comprised of. And as I said before, on the matter of violence against women, the authorities’ crime statistics are not the only evidence corroborating this. I’ve posted links to different sources throughout the thread if you care to look.
I think you must be assuming my gender because these are not my problems. I’m not a woman. I don’t need to be to speak out against discrimination against women from men. And I agree, we can’t fix this without the cooperation of men, of whom can hold other men accountable, because as you and many others in this thread have shown, men won’t listen to women about this at all.