I didn’t mean for this post to cause a bunch of arguing in the comments =(
I thought this was just some gallows humor (e.g. “Everything’s lovely except that I have to fear for my safety all the time”) type of shitpost that sounded similar to comments I’ve heard from women irl a lot.
You are not alone in feeling that. Everyone being angry about this in here probably feels the same. And it’s incredibly ingenuine to on one hand say this post communicates feelings about fear of going outside and/or men, while simultaneously dismissing feelings of anger at being called a murderer.
My own comment being dismissive of this post (because it’s a shitpost, that’s the literal community here) was deleted.
Another one where I say “women lie” is being downvoted and it was (softly) implied I’m a murderer for saying this (The comment says “You are the man we are afraid of”, context is “men like to murder” as of the OP). The reply and votes to the “women lie” one means people do in fact notice that an overgeneralization hurts. They just don’t care if it hurts men. Presumably because “men are murderers” and are thus not allowed a voice besides belittling themselves.
It’s just sad.
I made a reply to blind3rdeye where I mirrored some of your sentiments. I have a hard time finding mutual empathy with people. When anyone talks about the unique pain of belonging to certain groups I try my hardest to trust them. I do this because of how much dismissiveness there is of men’s issues.
I get that. I found myself on the side of vegans after a post mocked them for being a vegan while the nature they’re protecting is not, and comments then clowning on the vegans that showed up. “How do you know they’re vegan? They’ll tell you.” Kind of stuff. I’m not vegan but I really don’t like this kind of baiting.
My comments were way better received then.
I like what you wrote in the other comment, btw.
the thing is, nobody here is being dismissive of men’s issues, because this thread is not a conversation about men’s issues. men are coming in here and dismissing women’s issues.
you guys never seem to talk about this on your own accord, but rather only when it’s to bring down women for talking about the realities they face. it makes it difficult to believe that any of you here sincerely care about what you claim to.
You are under a comment about my experience and feelings. I am a man. These are my feelings as a man. People are very publicly dismissing them. You can’t just banish injustices towards people you don’t want to think about away to somewhere else.
E: that said a mod eventually will show up and do just that
yes, a comment about your experiences and feelings as a man under a thread about women’s experiences. i’m staying on the topic hand.
i shouldn’t have to explain to you why going “okay but what about men” every time women talk about their experiences is problematic and dismissive.
My comment is about the woman blaming men for being scared to go out at night. It’s directly related to the topic at hand. I am dismissive not of this woman’s experience, that is being scared to go out at night, but of her claim that this is men’s fault. I think men are right to be pissed at being blamed for this.
Men are at fault though. Women aren’t the ones attacking women, men are. Almost entirely. Who are they therefore supposed to blame so that your fee-fees don’t get hurt? And for the last fucking time, “men” doesn’t mean all men including you.
If you’re not referring to men don’t say men. Women do attack women. It happens. My point is that it would be illogical and sexist to blame women for this.
What part of “men are at fault though” don’t you understand? I am referring to men. I’m not referring to ALL men. That’s the distinction. You’re being obtuse.
Women do not attack women NEARLY as much as men do. It is not equal at all. You are also being disingenuous.
the difference is your generalization isn’t based in statistical fact. women who lie about false rape accusations (i assume that’s what you’re trying to get at here) are such an unfathomably small minority that no man ever has to live their life considering it. by saying that this is something women in do in equivalence to what women are saying men do, you’re implying otherwise and implying the authenticity of countless women’s experiences with sexual violence at the hands of men is invalid. experiences which are already seldom believed by the people who need to hear it.
on the other hand, a substantial amount of women experience sexual violence from men. it’s statistically common enough that women have to live in fear and that conventional wisdom has long held that women should not go out at night alone, carry mace, etc. etc. etc.
bottom line is, it’s a false equivalency that serves only to invalidate the reality women must face, and what you’re trying to equate it to is that reality. you are harming women by doing this.
it does not harm men to point out what a significant enough amount of them to be dangerous to women at large are doing. you are not personally affected by women saying that men are violent or murderers, but women are personally affected by your exaggerated claims of dishonesty when they speak out against this violence that they are statistically far more likely to experience.
Your assumption is yours to make, I was being deliberately ambiguous. My point was “men like murdering” sounds like a fact, but isn’t. Just as “women lie” sounds like a fact, but isn’t.
The OP isn’t, either. There is no difference. Both are damaging overgeneralizations. Even though more women (because its easier) do lie (again, ambiguous. Can be about how their food tasted) way more often than men do murder, both are damaging overgeneralizations. One more than the other.
Also:
You are referencing statistics. For the second time. Provide them.
No, you just feel like that. Me arguing that I don’t want to be called a murderer because of my penis is not a downplay of rape. You did that part all on your own.
That’s a lie. Also, how does that fit in with me harming women by pointing something out? We are talking about the sentence “men like murder”, which is rightfully being under fire. You could say this is a shitpost, but your comment is not.
Lie. Here you also try to justify the post as the truth. Just for future reference.
How? And how am I not affected by you denying my experience?
Are you talking about rape or murder? If you talk about murder, like the OP, that’s again a lie.
You, in particular, are not being called a murderer, because the OP clearly says “men” and not “all men.” You are however contributing to the problem by being dismissive and making a discussion about women’s safety about you, which is why women should be afraid of you since you are clearly self-serving and have no empathy for and understanding of their plight.
Please explain to me how women talking about violence from men affects you personally. I can tell you how exaggerating your claim is harmful toward women, since because of the disproportionate violence and sexual abuse they face from men, they often find themselves having to speak on their experiences, and often aren’t believed thanks to unfounded biases like yours.
The difference is that your claim is grossly exaggerated to appear equal to the OP’s claim, which actually has statistic validity. The OP’s only mistake is specifying murder, which isn’t the only threat of violence at the hands of men a woman would potentially (and has a good chance of having to) face walking alone at night, but anyone who isn’t 12 should be able to understand the use of hyperbole in a motherfucking shitpost. The intention is clear. it is not safe for women because of violence from men.
Here are the statistics: https://rainn.org/statistics/scope-problem, https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/table-42/table-42.xls, https://www.statista.com/statistics/251886/murder-offenders-in-the-us-by-gender/
You are being disingenuous again. Because you keep piling up new things and also because:
If that were the case, why did you find fault at the assumed statement of “women lie about rape”? I didn’t say “all”. If you believed what you just wrote to be true, you wouldn’t have brought this up. The OP was a blanket statement that included me. For nothing other than having a penis. Also, don’t forget that one comment that implied this to me directly.
Yeah, no. Learn how to make a discussion without accusations, like the accusation that was done in the OP, and then you can argue that. I realize you didn’t make the initial accusation, but you are defending it, and are also trying to make it into a “woman experience” which should somehow make it above reproach. That’s low.
Defending myself being called a murderer is self-serving and makes me without empathy and women should be afraid of me. What?
Oh, depends. If a friend asks for help in a current situation I can lend a helping hand. If a friend experienced something like this I can lend an ear and a shoulder. On the internet I can at least listen. And I do.
In this case someone was accusing me of being a murderer for having a penis, and you keep telling me that that’s not what’s happening. If you want to be listened to by me you need to tone down the accusations. To zero. Except if I did something, then I will take the blame. But I didn’t, so I won’t.
Then don’t exaggerate it. What does that have to do with me? Also, you are cultivating a bias in me right now, not unfounded. It does only include you, in case that makes you feel better.
It is not, because the OP has none. Even though men murder women more often than women murder women (which is a statistical truth), this isn’t what was stated in the OP. “Men love to commit murder” was the OP. There is no fact stated. Definitely not a statistically backed one.
The OP made many mistakes which qualified it as a proper shitpost. I am not condemning that, I just don’t like it, as stated. I am condemning you.
That is the intended feeling, yes. Incredibly bad delivery, a shitpost even, but yeah that’s it. Feel free to feel, I guess.
Put the statistics into the relevant parts of your comment next time. I won’t build your argument for you.
This will be my last reply in this particular thread. I guess anyone reading won’t be reading the essays we wrote, and I’m feeling you are arguing in bad faith here. Have a nice day.
because while saying “men” does not imply all men, the implication persists that it’s an issue coming from men as a demographic predominantly, which is a fact backed up by evidence. your accusation that women lie about their experiences has no basis in fact. it’s just a vibes-based point used by incels to discredit women speaking out against the horrors they face from, get this, MEN.
the whole point of this post and what every dumbass man in this thread seems to be missing is that murder and other forms of violence are mostly coming from one particular demographic, men. not any other demographic, and that’s why we single out men in particular. not because all men are doing it, but because men in general are doing it compared to everyone else. women don’t have to walk the streets in fear of women and i’m sure you understand that well.
i suppose when people talk about systemic racism being upheld by the police you come in and go “well not all cops are like that” as if that adds anything to the discussion at hand.
in your initial post that i replied to, you were complaining that you’ve been equated to a murderer because someone told you “You are the man we are afraid of.” the reason for that is because you’ve come into a thread about women’s negative (and factual) experiences due to the violence of men, and tried to make it about your precious fee-fees. this happens in every single discussion women have about what they face online, men always come in and try to steer the conversation away from the original topic and make it about men. men who do this kind of thing show no empathy or compassion for what women face, and yes, that’s indeed frightening.
my claims are not exaggerated because they’re backed up by evidence that suggests violence against women from men is a significantly large occurrence, large enough that women in general have to fear for their safety. like i said before, you’re drawing a false equivalency by comparing it to your claim that “women lie.” these are not equal issues in scope at all.
yup, it was written in a way that’s humorous and hyperbolic but the point was only lost on the dweebs in this thread who have no first-hand experience with what she’s talking about. i couldn’t say if the men who commit murder “love” to do it, but the fact remains that men do it, more than any other demographic, which is what the post is clearly trying to convey. i’m not sure how else you would interpret it unless you’re just being pedantic. “yeah, men are committing all these murders, but have you considered that they don’t actually love to do it like the OP said? :smuglord:” <- this is you
so you do understand the intention then, good. frankly, any shitpost that makes misogynists show their asses is a quality shitpost in my book. i haven’t been arguing in bad faith. i genuinely still stand by my point of view and while i don’t expect to convince any of the salty dudebros in this thread that they’re being problematic, i hope at least i can contribute a little bit to preventing the flow of disinformation, fallacies, and downright lies that make up MRA talking points. have a nice day.
You are using statistics inappropriately. You don’t understand the argument you are just trying to villainise men
whatever helps you sleep at night bro
This is sexism. This woman didn’t say “too bad recites national murder statistics exist.” She said men.
When you make a sweeping statement about women being dishonest in their accusations, this is unfounded. Men are statistically extremely unlikely to be falsely accused of sexual violence by a woman. A man does not need to consider women to be a potential threat.
When you make a sweeping statement about men being violent against women, this is not unfounded. Women are statistically very likely to experience violence from men. That doesn’t mean all or even a majority of men, but enough that women have to consider men to be a potential threat.
By trying to equate the two, you serve only to dismiss the credibility of very often real experiences from women. This harms women very much, especially in a society where they’re already seldom believed by the people who need to hear them, such as the authorities.
It is not sexism toward men to point out that men are the ones committing violence against women specifically, it’s a fact backed up by evidence. She said men because it’s not a woman who is realistically going to be a threat to her. Men ≠ all men. Also, the national murder statistics point to men specifically being the problem so I hardly see what the difference is.
If this woman said “too bad black people exist.” Would you rush to defend her with statistics. Stop being a hypocrite injustice is injustice doesn’t matter who does it or who they do it against.
No, because I also take into consideration the reasons for those statistics. Black people are demonstrably discriminated against and profiled by authorities, and are often suspected of, arrested and even convicted for crimes they did not commit.
The police, an entity dominated by men, do not unfairly discriminate against men. Men are actually committing these acts of violence against women, and we have non-police statistics that corroborate this, unlike the police statistics for racial minorities.
So you trust the institutions to deliver you news you agree with but not that you disagree with? Listen to yourself. How desperate are you to justify misplaced anger. Men aren’t the cause of your problems. And you won’t fix anything without them.
There is actual evidence of discrimination against racial minorities from the authorities, not discrimination against men, of whom the authorities are predominately comprised of. And as I said before, on the matter of violence against women, the authorities’ crime statistics are not the only evidence corroborating this. I’ve posted links to different sources throughout the thread if you care to look.
I think you must be assuming my gender because these are not my problems. I’m not a woman. I don’t need to be to speak out against discrimination against women from men. And I agree, we can’t fix this without the cooperation of men, of whom can hold other men accountable, because as you and many others in this thread have shown, men won’t listen to women about this at all.
I don’t believe I used incorrect pronouns anywhere. Please point out where and I will edit my comments. Sorry if I have.