Why are some people here on fuckcars still debating on what the best car is ? I mean, most of the time the best car is no car.
edit : that was a genuine question. I wasn’t expecting such wrath from car enthusiasts.
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That’s why I always appreciated /r/lowcar on Reddit
And that should not be acceptable. Every one should be able to commute by public transport. A car dependent situation is not immutable and should not be treated as such. You’r looking at the problems the wrong way. instead of asking what the best car is for a specific reality, we should be asking ourselves how to change that reality sot it’s not car dependent anymore.
Why not both? No one is going to put their lives on hold until public transit becomes available. Until that happens, you choose the least harmful option.
As for having public transit available for everyone, how would that work in very sparsely populated areas? Wouldn’t you just be wasting a ton of resources driving around a vehicle with no one in it?
I agree with the first statement. The answer for the least harfull option is easy though : if you currently are dependent on cars (a lot of people think they are but really aren’t, they are just lazy), get the smallest, most reliable second hand car you can find. Buying any thing new is just feedind the capitalist beast that the car industry is. If you choose to live in such a remote place that any form of public transportation would be “wasting a ton of resources driving around a vehicle with no one in it” then you are on you own.
What about people who live in such areas because there are jobs there that need doing?
Or people who live outside the US, in areas that aren’t flat and open?
If you are somewhere for work then you’re probably not on your own and your employer could offer some form of common transportation so you don’t rely on your own car (and foundings) to get your task done.
Ok, for one example, what would a park ranger do? (Not just USA rangers, this is a global job role.)
You will aways find exceptions (like emergency and medical sercices, transporting people who cannot walk or bike, transporting goods …) that’s why I said “most of the time”. A park ranger (edit : I meant " could use") use a car for her/his duties and go back home to her/his personal business with public transport. Most situations could be handled without a car, and the few left could be handled with much smaller vehicles (and should be looked at to minimize the use of car to a maximum. I’m sure a ranger could do some of her/his job riding a dirtbike)
Um. Have you ever been to rural areas? Like no snark intended, but unless you plan on forcing people to live in denser populated areas, public transit just won’t work in remote areas.
At least not until flying cars become the norm.
I’d be willing to listen to your plan on getting public transit an hours drive into rural areas.
In short: rural transit hubs. People drive to those instead of direct to destinations.
My parents grew up in rural Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, Canada.
Until the proliferation of personal automobiles (closer to 70s/80s in this region), each town had “enough stuff” in the general store to survive, and busses looped the highways. Mines and mills would employ vans to pick up their worker and reduce commutes. People with trucks would pick up things for others on their return trips from deliveries.
People lived in rural areas for millennia before cars arrived. They absolutely make life their easier, don’t get me wrong; but are not a survival necessity. Also, having a car should be a tool to get to a transit link, not the whole journey. In North America, towns were founded on trains and rails, not cars.
For example, my in laws live on a farming island. Right now they drive to the ferry, take the ferry, then drive to every destination in the city. In tourist season they leave a car on the island and the mainland due to high ferry loads. A better solution would be driving to the outskirts of town to transfer to public transit; the best solution would be public transit serving the ferry. Public transit wouldn’t work on the island, but there is already a natural collection point.
The neighbouring island’s ferry connects to downtown, this increases the number of non-drivers; with most vehicles taking the transit focused on deliveries, tourism, and island residents who’s employment is not easily accessible by public transit.
Anyways, my plan is regional hubs for public transit. If people still live to far from a station, at least they can drive to a town hub instead of a city. Swiss towns in the neighborhood of 5,000 have public transit and rail access.
most of us could even cycle or walk to thoses hubs
Especially with ebikes now a thing. Or even gold carts for those with mobility challenges
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You can like cars and also acknowledge that their over-use is detrimental to having a healthy and happy society. I would consider myself a car enthusiast, and I even work in the auto-industry but I can see the issues as well.
Additionally, even though I like cars I also like commuting by bike and have always felt bitter that I can’t do it safely.
There are lots of reasons car enthusiasts want change too. We’re allies more than you realize
You’re just trying to convice yourself that what you do is fine. just like a tobacco addict saying he/she’s not addicted, still has freewill, can quit any time, just smoke socially, is not a victim of the tobacco industry… same fallacious logic. You do you bro, but be honest with yourself.
Okay what exactly do you wan’t him to do? Thats what I want to know. I mean he is doing quite good in seeing the issues and he also wants some change. Probably not as much as some of us, thats hard to say because I dont know him. So as long as people are not against that change we can first treat them maybe as allies?
You seem to see the world in black and white. And I think that is hurting you somewhat. I was the same a few years earlier but I realized that the world is way to complex to make it that easy.
bro you don’t know me hahaha
Yes I don’t know you thats true, just your style of discussion kinda reminded me of my own self a few years ago. I did not wan’t to attack you with my comment. Sorry if that is what you have read.
To be clear, I understand you point but the way I have read it was that you are calling people out that really have no other option. And that is the sad truth.
Just because I am able to live without one currently. It does not mean that everyone is able. I am not saying fuck all cars, just that we need to get them off our planet pretty soon for the benefit of all people. So currently for me Fuck Cars is just Fuck all Cars that are useless and not needed! Some people need cars and probably don’t like it too! For me personally this communtiy is to rant about cars and why they suck for us all. Giving ideas for better world without cars and showing people that love cars that there are good reasons to hate them too.
I understand what you see, seems bad for you but thats currently how the world is. A bit fucked up. But we all try to change it to a better place and I think that is great and why I love communities like this one (:
I wanted to drop in and say thank you for being respectful and making a genuine attempt at communicating your ideas, is baffling to me how vile people are being to a basic question of the movement.
99% of cars are not needed. Everyone should be able to go on with their life without it. Every car dependent situation could not be. Instead of saying cars are ok because I need one right now" that is fallacious, we should be asking “how can we change things so we don’t need it anymore ?”. Fuck all cars
I don’t know where you live. I live in Germany and know some people that are dependend on Cars and do not like it at all. Mostly outside of cities its just not possible to get to work without a car. If they would have alternatives they would switch. So as I said, we should be open to people and show them why it hurts also them and not just scream fuck cars only. We should rally for a better public transporting infrastructure and why it is also good for people that currently depend on cars.
And we are asking quite a lot how we can change things so we don’t need them anymore. So for now, fuck all cars that are not needed. And fuck the politicians that they don’t give the people alternatives. Fuck everything that makes cars more dependend in Daily live.
And we should also celebrate all changes that all changes to car centric infrastructure. Its still a long way, but I think just saying everone should just get off their job and not use cars anymore is not the best way…
I live in Germany and know some people that are dependend on Cars and do not like it at all. Mostly outside of cities its just not possible to get to work without a car. If they would have alternatives they would switch.
Pfff, cry me a river. I know many of these people as well, and none, absolutely none of them has ever given any thought about where they live and work, but then complain that there’s no train running between those places. Yeah, trains do not go where you want them to, news at eleven.
And no, don’t start with the „not everybody can choose“ speech. Owning a car in Germany is expensive. You know who cannot choose where to place home and work? People who cannot afford cars. They have to find something that’s either walkable, bikeable, or on a public transport route.
For the vast majority of Germans, owning a car is a deliberate choice.
that’s the bloody truth right here !
You are based and right. If someone needs a car, which might be, the focus should be on changing their situation as fast as possible so they don’t need it.
I see very few valid exceptions - transporting infirm, people with disabilities etc. In most of those cases, there should still be a focus on how to minimize or substitute car use as much as possible
In my hometown they recently established a shuttle bus line for medical transportation and grocery transport for the elderly. This allows people with disabilities to get to places you need a car to get to without having to worry about the financial or environmental impact of owning their own car.
The amount of arrogant ignorance you have is hilarious. Have you ever been to the US, outside of a major city? You understand how large and disparate most of the US is right? You could fit 40 UKs in to the US. Should the mountains just be filled with busses going to every small town on tiny ass roads? What if there is no bus or train to where I’m going? Just horse and buggy it to “save the planet” or “stick it to capitalism”? Do you realize how many people LOVE cars? Go try and fix things so you can potentially do SOMETHING, not just sit here arrogantly shouting your narrowminded views. You need to have your opinions challenged in the real world, otherwise your fantastical arguments hold no water. You’re not seeing from others perspectives, just naively trying to force your limited understanding of the world on to others.
Because you can support the idea that cars are bad for society as a whole, and still live within a society that depends on cars. People may want to discuss the car that is the least harmful to civilization while still enabling them to get to and from work.
the least harmfull car is public transport. we should be discussing how to make this accessible instead.
So then be the change, bring in ideas! Thats also happening here. I would like to see it happening more
all right :) fairly quickly : train lines, bus lines, footpaths and cycle paths. hubs of public transport, where people can get from their place cycling or walking (or in the worst case senario driving) to get a bus/train/tram/… to where they need to go. Room for bycicle is important (in the trains, buses, etc) so people can keep on traveling easily whem they get to their destination (and small rental cars for the few who can’t cycle or walk). Thisins not a revolutionary idea, it’s been real before we developed all our infrastructure and life around cars.
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who’s aggressive here ?
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Jesus CHRIST dude. What is going on in here?
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You can all discuss your points here but don’t be pricks about it!
Yes I understand that this is a heated topic, but I wan’t to remind all to be please stay civiliced and friendly! Think about what you are writing and that its not against people. Remember the rules of this instance. I just wan’t to remind you all that we have the same goal in common.
When I was younger my brother became vegan and he was such a prick about it that he poisoned the discourse in our family for years. A couple of years later I tried to get the family on board with only eating meat 4 days a week to limit consumption for the environment but at that point my brother had killed any good faith engagement and moved out. I am fairly certain that him being vegan has led to more animals being killed because than if he just kept eating meat because he was just too toxic
OP is like my brother. Everyone should ignore him because he is probably twelve and a narcissist that doesn’t know that you need to meet people where they are at. The sooner people like him gets ejected from the movement the less damage they will do.
What the fuck man… Reread your comment and count to 10, then reread OPs post and consider if this reply isn’t toxic as hell.
People are saying that they need a car because society has fucked them over and in order for their life to work they need a car. That is why a discussion about what kind of car they should buy to minimize harm is important. OP is basically complaining that the discussion isn’t pure enough because only a complete elimination of cars right this second is good enough. They reiterate this over and over in the comments and edited the post to call people “car enthusiasts” because they, like me, think OP is unproductive and toxic to the movement.
what fucking mouvement, lol ? This is a discussion thread …
It’s a valid point, you need to actually get people on your side for a cause to succeed, and saying “all cars are bad” isn’t how you do that.
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wtf are you two talking about ?
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It is a problem…
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Wait, this isn’t a community for people who are sexually attracted to personal conveyance machines‽
You’re generally going to be more effective at creating change if you work on it gradually rather than pretending you’ve already accomplished it.
This isn’t r/fucksteamlocomotives, the reality is that in most places people still need a car. Focus on how to reduce that need, rather than putting your energy into attacking people who have it.
I like guns and tanks and planes for the same reason I like cars. But that doesn’t mean I want war. Just because I like cars doesn’t mean I want to drive everywhere.
Some people like to argue. I will admit that I have no issues with cars and come here for the entertainment. Some people make valid points that I can consider, some people live in lah lah land with batshit insane unrealistic expectations for western society. “We should make roads safer for those who have no car” is a fair and reasonable position. “The entire planet should abolish cars and every rural area ever should have public transportation so we can have a cyclist wet dream” is tone deaf lunacy.
If you don’t wana hear people saying “Fuck cars” then just don’t come to a place called “FuckCars”, no one’s forcing you … weird …
Hi! I see you wrote “tone deaf lunacy” where you meant to write, “blatant strawman intended to distract myself from my moral responsibilities to other human beings and sentient creatures.” Don’t feel bad, when you hang around a bit, you start to realize this is a really, really common mistake people make.
See, this is a classic example of that tone deaf nonsense.
These comments are horrible! Buncha assholes in this thread honestly, sorry OP. Its too bad people dunno how to make a point without calling you names or some rude shit. I’m thinking I’m blocking this community since mods seem OK with dat
Idk, OP is being a little aggro and inflexible with people who are making salient points about accepting the truths of the current necessity of cars in some situations
I am sorry that you think you need to leave the community. Maybe I can give a bit of insight what is happening currently.
I am also not okay with how some people are not able to make a discussion without calling names. I myself have written something that can be missunderstood and that after I read it must say that It really came wrongly.
We currently are working on some more specific rules to make it easier for us to decide what to delete and what not. Sometimes the comments are just so much that we simply don’t have the time to read them all. So feel free to use the report button then, so we can have a closer look on the content that is not okay.
I want this community to be open to discussion and that people can have different opinions and that we are all able to discuss it. I feel sorry for OP too because its not okay what some people did write here.
that’s allright :) thank’s for doing the Mod, it’s not a rewarding job.
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I’m thinking the same … thanks for tje support, they’re only strangers on the internet though, no worries :)
This is a problem with the Lemmy community at the moment. There are so few posts that people can happily consume the firehose, and they end up exposed to and butting into conversations where they’re really not welcome a lot more often.
you’re actually the only one answering the question hahaha, thanks, that makes sens !
They’re so fragile. It’s hard work living in that much denial and they don’t want us disturbing their delicate emotions.
Yeah, Apparently.
All I read is “I feel attacked, stop tellimg me I can change, It’s the government fault if I drive a massive SUV everywhere, [sobbing], I’m not gonna change shit though, [sobbing] I’m a victim” or “I don’t like cars but I mean …”.
Just bloody whinings.
Carnists and the religiously motorized have so much in common.
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Please please tell me you understand why it’s not okay to call someone brain damaged for starting a conversation about the nuances of the fuck cars ideology.
What is your end goal? This attitude and lack of basic human respect is not going to do anything but generate hostile conversation. I’m on your side ideologically but tanj… this is not a healthy way to communicate those ideas.
Even if they’re asking in bad faith, it would be much more useful to be able to read well thought out reasons as to why they’re wrong, because comments like this aren’t going to communicate why we will almost always need to use cars for niche applications. (Transporting construction materials and workers to remote areas, for establishing wind farms, etc.)
It’s not about the cars, unfortunately. The user noticed a specific line of attack that the community was vulnerable to and exploited it.
It’s not an actually reasonable position. It sounds emotionally like a belief someone could hold, which is what made it so effective, but the logic of their replies is what gives them away. They are not actually making reasoned, rational arguments about how this could be done, nor are they fairly addressing their critics.
If not inoculated against this behavior by learning how to specifically not engage with trolling behavior, this community is doomed to lose to it eventually. The trolls always win once you let them in. They enjoy this process and find it a pleasurable recreational activity, even though nobody else does.
wtf are you talking about ?
You poked some kind of hornets nest!
People on here like, “oh, I don’t find this movement welcoming enough”.
Movement!? This is a fucking discussion board 😂
And people are too sensitive to interact with someone with a different point of view. I mean, judging by the vote counts we are very outnumbered, yet they feel so threatened?
I’m just looking some one goddamned place online to enjoy grassy trams and dump on cars. FFS…
indeed, “movement” haha. let me know if you find it :)
“Hey guys, I have a small car so, I’m okay, right? Please validate.”
Personally, I’d rather not read apologetics like this. Fuck all cars.
It’s pretty bad in the other vegan comm, too.
Do you want a working fire alarm system in your building? Yes? Then leave my vehicle out of this.
other people can take the bus though.
