I mean it’s an inherently anti-consumer policy, the question is if that hit to consumer choice is worth it for the manufacturers that are getting a leg up, or to kneecap a foreign adversary who’s making a play at market capture.
Trump doesn’t have anything close to the market awareness to make these judgement calls with any degree of accuracy outside of tariffing literally everything that’s imported and hoping it hits some of the right spots.
I mean, tariffs can definitely make sense if a country is making extremely cheap alternatives that destroy the local industry or if another country sells insanely cheap options to get a monopoly on the market to then increase the price.
Problem is that that country is miles ahead in the technology of the other country’s local industry and has fine do through economies of scale while the other country keeps on pumping out high margin versions of their inferior product
There is an economic argument that goods are selling at the clearing rate. We sell widgets for $5 because that’s the price point at which we move the most number of widgets and therefore generate the most revenue.
If we start taxing imported widgets by $1/ea, the retailer has to choose between stocking the domestic widget (expensive but no tax) versus the imported widget (cheap but taxed). But they still want to maximize the units sold, so they won’t raise the price above $5.
There is a counterargument that tariffs will cause importers to redirect their supply to other countries. That drives the gross inventory down over time and raises the clearing price above $5.
But, broadly speaking, tariffs will raise the price of goods that we can’t efficiently make in the US while the price of goods we can make will remain largely unchanged. So this then raises the question, What Do We Make in the United States Today?
Dumb decisions, people nervous, that sort of thing…
The question is: what should we be making in the US?
Tariffs can give domestic manufacturing a temporary reprieve from lower priced foreign suppliers, to build or improve domestic manufacturing.
They can also be used to try to punish other countries for unfair trading practices
For example
- 100% tariffs on Chinese manufactured EVs are claimed to be in retaliation on for unfair Chinese government subsidies
- US government is offering incentives to domestic EV manufacturers and purchasers of domestically produced EVs, which could help build domestic production, in conjunction with temporary tariffs
I’m not convinced that they’ve put this much thought into it, nor that domestic manufacturers will use this window of opportunity
100% tariffs on Chinese manufactured EVs are claimed to be in retaliation on for unfair Chinese government subsidies
The Chinese government subsidies are the same set of public improvements and business incentives every industrial country provides to build up domestic infrastructure. They’re significantly less generous than the Big Three Bailouts that Bush, Obama, Trump, and Biden all had to extend at least once in each of their terms.
US government is offering incentives to domestic EV manufacturers
But this is also an “unfair” subsidy, isn’t it?
I’m not convinced that they’ve put this much thought into it, nor that domestic manufacturers will use this window of opportunity
Foreign car companies - BYD being one, but Hyundai, Toyota, and Volkswagen certainly piling on the bandwagon - have invested far more money in small vehicle production than US contemporaries. Consequently, they tend to produce vehicles with better fuel economy at a much cheaper price point.
At the end of the day, that’s what this tariff is penalizing.
Is there really any way to get us making things again?
Part of me feels like that would be better for workers, but I’m kind of a dumbass
Do you want things to be cheaper or wages to be higher (especially wages for those in low wage jobs).
There were ideals about competitive advantage. But the whole economy has been undercut by lower wages elsewhere that things got cheaper but not because of increases in productivity in the economy so wages went down.
There are a lot of pressure to deflate wages with free trade and immigration. But things that increase wages like market forces and limited labour aren’t really a factor anymore.
Making things again would be taxes on imports, free education, tax breaks for RandD and investment. Also subsidies and blocks on exporting IP and knowledge.
So trumps tariff plan could get us making things in America again or no? It seems like workers had a lot more power and therefore higher wages before america de-industrialized and that was a better thing for the average person but I don’t know I wasn’t around then
I’m not American so I don’t really know what’s going on. It seems that people, especially on this website, can’t see anything Trump says or does as a positive because he isn’t on their team. But he certainly has said and done things that are right or a positive at least for some people. Can’t just disagree with someone for the sole reason you don’t like him.
But economics is complicated. For example trade barriers make things more expensive and could increase jobs or decrease them. Or more accurately increase in some areas and decrease in others. No one knows what’s going to happen for sure, even looking back people disagree on what has happened.
But I personally think there has been too much emphasis on GDP growth around the western world and lower business costs rather than increasing discretionary income and jobs for lowest earners. So policies that are weighted for that rather than businesses I see as net gain at the moment.
Trump is an evil bigot but yeah even a broken clock is right twice a day. I can’t stand people who dismiss or demonize an argument for the sole reason that it has been voiced by trump.
Retailers in the US should add a second price tag with the 20pct included as an example
That should be the exact attack ad Harris uses.
Retailers have already put plenty of new price tags with 20 percent added under Biden.
You enjoying the tax hikes your fuhrer enacted after ballooning the deficit and creating this runaway inflation we are experiencing?
The person you responded to sure makes a lot of AI posts…
your fuhrer enacted
“Hey, inflation happened under Biden.”
“You’re a fucking Nazi”
:-/ That Lemmy Discourse, folks.
Is that what I said? No. I call trump their fuhrer because they want him to be their fascist dictator.
they want him to be their fascist dictator
That’s what noticing inflation under a rival administration means, yes sir.
No, you absolute potato. That’s what happens when you try to overthrow a democracy with a violent coup attempt after losing an election.
How does noticing inflation under Biden do this?
Like what happened to everywhere in the world post pandemic? Corporate profiteering? Sure… blame Biden…
To be fair, it’s corporations choosing to raise the price instead of making less money. You see this exact argument from the other side when the left wants to make the wealthy pay taxes. Either way it’s a deeply flawed argument.
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You mean like the tariffs to EVs that Biden announced?
Yea, those are bad, too. Are you under the impression that we just don’t have enough of them and that’s the issue?
No, I mean that it’s hypocritical criticising the other administration for following the same trend
A great deal of the Biden economic policy is focused on decoupling from China and moving outsourced corporate slave labor practices to US allies in India, the Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, and Vietnam.
But the rub is that these countries are just importing cheap manufactured surplus from China, rebranding it, and shipping it to the US after collecting a transfer fee.
So a lot of this isn’t hypocrisy as much as it is the nationalist geopolitics of DC running into the greed and deceptive practices of international business interests.
The “slave labor” thing about china is 40 years too late. China now has wildly better working conditions than India or Phillipines or Indonesia or Malaysia.
Aren’t you concerned with the cold-war-like escalation that we’re seeing the US adopt against china?
Right, but it’s Lemmy. Talking about the universal housing, elimination of poverty, age 60 retirement policy, no chronic student debts or medical debts, blah blah blah makes you a far left anti-Taiwan tankie.
Aren’t you concerned with the cold-war-like escalation
Terrified. But more for American East Asians, at the end of the day. They’re already getting the Arab-American treatment by degrees. If we continue to escalate, it won’t be long before they’re full 2nd class citizens.
How dare you point out the hypocrisy?! Seriously though, people downvoting you need to understand that while democrats are better than trump on most issues, they’re largely the same on this particular issue, so it’s not exactly a point that can be pinned solely on trump.
Those taxes didn’t really impact many things that American consumers can already buy.
They mostly hit Chinese manufacturers that were on the edge of releasing sub-40k EV in the US. Example: Geely’s Volvo ex30. That thing is a very compelling alternative to what Tesla offers.
A cheaper ev hitting us market would impact what americans can buy,
My point is that Biden’s 100% tariffs on Chinese manufacturers EVs do not increase the cost of living in the US. It basically keeps it the same, since Americans really aren’t buying BYD or Geely cars coming from Chinese manufacturing lines.
Trump’s proposed tariffs would increase the cost of goods people in the US are already purchasing, not just the goods people might purchase.
Too bad Biden kept the tariffs Trump instituted during his term and increased them. Trump will add even more tariffs during his term, but I’m not confident that the democrat that follows won’t also keep and add onto them.
That’s how import taxes work. Now you may have incentive to spend your money at the local manufacturer, instead of chinese one, and he may have more money to buy whatever services you provide.
There is enough of dumb shit you can attack trump for, no need to attack him for the one that actually makes sense.
Tariffs only make sense when you can outcompete or at least get parity with your opposition. We can’t do that immediately and Trump is like a child who never had to wait for anything because he’s quite literally a child who’s never had to wait for anything.
We can’t do that immediately
You can use the money from the tariff to help local bussines to strive towards that goal.
So how does that make products cheaper in the short term that he says it will, I.e the 4 years of a presidency?
With his proposed tariffs of 100%, washing machines used to cost $500, they are now $1000. Same machine, same features. Washing machine factory dont exist locally, and may not even exist because the margins may still not work out. Even if they intend to build one, how does that help me even long term? Washing machine prices are now anchored at $1000 instead of the $500 because their only competition has their price controlled at that rate.
How is me losing $500 dollars from now on for the same product saving me money? How does this repeating for hundreds or thousands of products help me save money while losing more money on each of them?
So how does that make products cheaper in the short term that he says it will, I.e the 4 years of a presidency?
it does not, goal of the tax is not to make product cheaper.
Washing machine factory dont exist locally, and may not even exist because the margins may still not work out.
well the goal is obviously encourage growth of local manufacturers, so hopefully there will be one (or more)
Even if they intend to build one, how does that help me even long term?
your neighbour now may have a job manufacturing washing machines he didn’t have before and can buy service you provide, so you will also end up with more money.
the state has 500 usd from some imported washing machines, which, hopefully, it will invest wisely to further increase the general well being of the population (don’t laugh, i know. but if they don’t, that’s not problem of the economic principal)
and when one day china says “no more washing machines for you, unless you bow to winnie the pooh here”, you may say “fuck you, we are actually manufacturing washing machines at home”
the last part, the self sufficiency, is the most important. my country officials were bowing and saluting to china cargo planes carrying masks and syringes during covid and there were real fear they if they did not, the plane might not have landed. and being dependent on china, which is euro-atlantic civilization’s geopolitical enemy is not smart long term strategy.
Washing machine prices are now anchored at $1000 instead of the $500 because their only competition has their price controlled at that rate.
well you now have more players on the market than before, so there is more competition and you are in better position than before. but unfortunately it is true that things will not get cheaper. there is 8 fucking billion of us on the finite planet and we are finally starting to realize it does not allow for infinite growth. more expensive stuff aka our ability to have less of it is manifestation of that problem, it is not some fluke that smart politician will solve with right slogan.
Nope. Tariffs are price increases. They don’t directly generate revenue.
Tariffs are price increases.
yes, they are, that’s what taxes do.
They don’t directly generate revenue.
yes, they do, that’s what taxes do.
No, people just won’t buy that shit, necessities are by in large owned by huge multi national corporations who won’t end up paying that tariff they’ll just wrap it into the price and pass out to the consumer.
i don’t think you understand what tariff is and how it works. say there is some american made goods, it costs 10 usd. and here is the chinese equialent, it costs 5 usd, for seemingly similar product.
majority of people will buy the 5 usd product, because “they are not dumb, right” TM
you subject that chinese product to 5 usd import tax - now both of them cost 10 and you can as well buy the home made made one.
yes, it is more expensive for you.
but on the other hand your neighbour now may have a job he didn’t before and can buy service you provide, so you will also end up with more money.
and the state still has that 5 usd which, hopefully, it will invest wisely to further increase the general well being of the population (don’t laugh, i know. but if they don’t, that’s not problem of the economic principal)
and when one day china says “no more products for you, unless you bow to winnie the pooh here”, you may say “fuck you, we are actually manufacturing the product at home and we are not going to starve without you”
the last part, the self sufficiency, is the most important. my country officials were bowing and saluting to china cargo planes carrying masks and syringes during covid and there were real fear they if they did not, the plane might not have landed. and being dependent on china, which is euro-atlantic civilization’s geopolitical enemy is not smart long term strategy.
Ideally that’s how it works. Economics are rarely of ever ideal and tariffs statistically do not end up working as ideal.
nothing in the world works optimally. that doesn’t mean we stop trying.
It doesn’t mean we stab ourselves to death either though.
Except, more likely, there are few available competitors to the tarriffed product and now the consumer covers the increased cost. Meanwhile, local alternatives, where they are available, price up because, well they had market when the pre-tarrif import was available and their own delta was what it was, so they can push the price up to just capture more profit with the same or still larger market, depending on the good.
The point is that deploying the sort of policy is incredibly tricky in the best of circumstances, and still likely to do more harm than help. And that you think, of all people, someone as very obviously stupid as Trump is capable of threading that needle is beyond baffling.
Striving toward a goal is not immediately. Immediately people will see higher prices on a lot of familiar brands.
Striving toward a goal is not immediately.
yes, striving toward a goal is, by definition, not immediately.
Immediately people will see higher prices on a lot of familiar brands.
yes, that’s how long term goals work. you are building a house, you have bought a brick today, spent money, and you still don’t have a house!
Our point is that you still need shelter while you build a new house.
sure, but that doesn’t mean the idea of building a house is bad one.
People aren’t arguing that tariffs are bad, they’re arguing that large instant tariffs are.
But this is a very stupid one that he doesn’t seem to understand how to work it. Let me give you one example that hit last time this asshole was in office.
My spouse works for one such import company. While it is US based it gets its metals and product from China and a few other Asian markets.
I wont get into the details as to what all they make but they provide a lot of various hardware items that you find in the large retail hardware outlets.
When Orange Man did this last time, guess what happened? They simply increased the prices to compensate and pushed all that down the line to consumers. When the bottom dollar got bad enough they laid off employees. Same thing happened at some of the other companies she worked with.
Thing is the US hardly manufacture anything, anymore. In fact a lot of the metals and other stuff we no longer mine. It’s easy to say ‘This makes sense’ well no, it doesn’t - he is running his mouth again to get votes without considering the long term effects of how it will damage the economy even worse.
Thing is the US hardly manufacture anything, anymore.
tbf, we manufacture a lot still. It’s just typically things that require skilled workers and advanced machinery, not common consumer goods. The only consumer goods we produce in large values anymore are cosmetics, pharmaceuticals, and handheld electronics.
You’re only looking at and mentioning the short term effect, not any long term effects, and then criticizing others for the same thing. The long term effect is inefficient businesses like your spouses company shuts down, and local production increases at all levels.
Global ecomonies are incompatible with life on Earth, as we have learned.
The long term effect is inefficient businesses like your spouses company shuts down, and local production increases at all levels.
That’s a wild claim. Can you back that up with any data that shows tariffs always increase local jobs and income?
It’s a wild claim that companies that have to pay fair value for their materials and labor either close or find more local resources to continue operation?
So your data is “I’m just guessing it works that way.” Neat.
My main issue with your statement is the one you dodged addressing. To qoute:
“Local production increases at all levels.”
Please source the data that shows people paying 200% the price for required goods, and spending way less discretionary money overall, somehow makes production increase at all local levels.
I’ll even help by giving you some parameters. Remember, Trump has promised we will immediately start paying less for everything as soon as he enacts these tariffs. That’s the exact opposite of how tariffs work, but okay. Ignoring the raw stupid, can you show me data that jobs/income/quality of life of all citizens goes up in a nation that enables extreme tariffs in a 4 year period after they are enacted?
Are you purposely misunderstanding things like all conservatives do or do you really not understand how increasing import costs above local source costs increases demand and thus production?
So still no facts or data and down to personal insults instead of addressing any part of the discussion.
Have fun out there mate.
So that means we’ll get cheap EVs and solar panels, right?
Cheap and not exploiting people and environment unfortunately don’t go hand to hand. You have to choose your priority.
They actually do go hand in hand. Just not under the american economic system. China has cheap evs higher average wages when factoring in ppp, and a better environmental track record and future than the US.
Oh yes, the famously non exploitative economy of China. The country where some companies are installing fences on the roofs so that their working forces can’t suicide so easily. The country were political prisoners are being used as cheap working force. That one? Doesn’t sound so much better or even different from the American economic system.
The country where some companies are installing fences on the roofs so that their working forces can’t suicide so easily.
The specific company you’re likely thinking of is famously American company Apple.
Or rather a legally distinct subcontractor that does nothing but produce products for Apple and is thus de facto a part of Apple regardless of legal ass-covering.
The country were political prisoners are being used as cheap working force
As opposed to the US where more or less ALL prisoners, some of which are political prisoners, are slaves?
In case there’s any doubt, none of what I just pointed out exhonorates Chinese mistreatment of workers in any way.
Equally horrible or even less horrible doesn’t ever equal good enough.
Yes, that is exactly why I wrote that it’s not so different from the American system
Oops, guess I missed that part, my apologies. In my defense, it was late here 😁
Did you step out of a time machine from the early 2000s? Also that second part just isn’t a thing in China. Id recommend actually reading up on modern China, what they did to the foxxcon ceos that did cause suicide inducing working conditions, and why China will surpass the US in every positive measure by the end of the decade
They actually do go hand in hand.
they actually do not. whatever your business is, you can do it with or without passing negative externalities on your employees and environment you operate in.
in one case your product will be cheaper, but with bad consequences, and you have to choose one of these paths.
Easy to do when you skip 200 years of industrialization. I get what you’re saying, and you’re not wrong, but they just happened to be in a more advantageous position to start with in this instance.
“skip”? Not strong on history are you?
How do you think your food gets to your table?
“Cheap” is relative, stop being deliberately obtuse.
Tariffs tend to make all sides poorer. We benefit from cheap imports, because those imports serve as inputs to our companies. Additionally, tariffs on our side tend to be matched by tariffs on the other sides which will hurt exports. There’s no realistic scenario where a broad tariff benefits the local economy.
We benefit from cheap imports
in a similar way you benefit from first few cheap heroin doses. so, not really.
my country officials were bowing and saluting to china cargo planes carrying masks and syringes during covid and there were real fear they if they did not, the plane might not have landed. we had indeed no capability to produce syringes and masks at home.
being dependent on china, which is euro-atlantic civilization’s geopolitical enemy number one, is not smart long term strategy.
Say you are right, and magically stuff is made in the US. What would stop the US mega corps from just raising their prices 19pct? Still cheaper and free profit.
Why would large manufacturers move to a US with all its pesky eco rules and labor protections if you can just stay in your current country where you invested in your factories and just have the US consumer eat the price hike?
Investing in a country due to tarrifs is risky, cause if the tarrifs ever go away you invested in an uncompetitive manufacturing plant.
Tarrifs will be met with counter tarrifs causing other sectors to implode. The last round of trump tarrifs on china needed to be spent on farmers in the US almost completely because china tariffed their products and their main customer base in china dissapeared over night.
Why would large manufacturers move to a US with all its pesky eco rules and labor protections
Bwahhahahahah… You’re funny.
I get what you are saying, but compared to where these companies are now…
What would stop the US mega corps from just raising their prices 19pct? Still cheaper and free profit.
i honestly don’t understand the question. why should they do that? what’s stopping them now? what’s your point?
Why would large manufacturers move to a US with all its pesky eco rules and labor protections if you can just stay in your current country where you invested in your factories and just have the US consumer eat the price hike?
because you can now produce at home at a competitive price?
Investing in a country due to tarrifs is risky, cause if the tarrifs ever go away you invested in an uncompetitive manufacturing plant.
indeed, longterm stability and predictability is important. there are unpredictable factors in 3rd world countries the west civilization currently exploits as well, so the goal is to be more stable and predictable at home. i am not saying it is easy.
Tarrifs will be met with counter tarrifs causing other sectors to implode. The last round of trump tarrifs on china needed to be spent on farmers in the US almost completely because china tariffed their products and their main customer base in china dissapeared over night.
so… it worked?
You are either being silly or intentionally taking weird positions.
- the current prices are set by the market. If an artificial influence like a tarrifs overnight makes part of the products a certain percentage more expensive, the market will readjust to this new reality. Since companies love profits, it will adjust upwards to get as close to the increased conpetitors price while keeping your advantage.
- “at home” for a lot of companies is not the US. Your reasoning is poor here, companies are driven by profit not feelings.
- No it’s not easy indeed, see previous point. And the competitive edge the companies have by staying in cheaper countries helps them be competitive in the rest of the world.
- it worked? The Trump tarrifs stayed under biden… cause flip flopping policy is sometimes worse, and removing the tarrifs without china removing theirs will just make things worse. Did your stuff get cheaper? Or is that Bidens fault?
You are either being silly or intentionally taking weird positions.
oh i am? 😂
the current prices are set by the market.
yes. and when your competitor is not bound by the same regulations as you are, you may find that unfair, because he can achieve cheaper prices on the same market.
increased conpetitors price while keeping your advantage.
what? the current competitor’s price is lower than yours and you are trying to level the field. you are approaching the price from the opposite direction than you suggest, so what you are saying makes no sense.
“at home” for a lot of companies is not the US.
and the goal of the tariff is to change that.
companies are driven by profit not feelings.
exactly. that’s why they have no problem exploiting people and environment in 3rd world countries. if you change the rules of the game to make it profitable for them to come back, they will do that.
No it’s not easy indeed
i never said it is easy.
And the competitive edge the companies have by staying in cheaper countries helps them be competitive in the rest of the world.
yes, this is sort of a prisoner’s dilemma and lot of economic problem’s is like that in modern world. i don’t have a solution for that, but it is pretty clear that selfish strategy for everyone is not actually working for anyone right now.
it worked?
it worked, because farmers who got in trouble were compensated according to what you said. i am not american, i don’t know details about trump tariffs and i in no way defend trump or his implementation. i am just saying tariffs are not stupid idea. the specific implementation is what can make it work or not and you can fuck up there, i am sure.
Did your stuff get cheaper?
goal of the tariffs is not make stuff cheaper.
Trump points to tarrifs when asked what he will do to make life more affordable to Americans. For the rest I suggest some more econ classes.
For the rest I suggest some more econ classes.
sounds like reasonable idea. when do you start?
Tariffs, especially irresponsible ones like those of Trump, are just price increases for consumers in both countries and subsidies for domestic companies making an inferior and/or expensive product.
It will make things more expensive for consumers. But workers will have better wages, due to there being more jobs.
The economy is a set of feedback loops. Kind of like the brain. Trump’s tariffs will make things more expensive in the same way quitting cocaine will make everything harder to do.
Ah look, an ignorant traitor supporter spewing the same bullshit their rapist fuhrer tells them to parrot.
No wonder you people fall for that demented felon with zero real plan. You’re too dumb to realize you’re being played.
Fuck your wannabe dictator, you anti-freedom, anti-american trash.
i wanted to ask “what are you, 10?” then i saw your nickname. i don’t have to ask anymore 😂
I wanted to ask why you are anti-freedom, anti-constitution, anti-democratic, and anti-american but then I saw your magat post history and wonder no longer.
I am neither one of these things and I have no maga post history. You should do less drugs, they are not intended for 10 year olds.
It is good to know you were unable to argue against my post so you had to go to my post history hoping to find something to attack me. And then you didn’t, so you had to make stuff up. Well, life is hard sometimes :D
Your post was regurgitated bullshit so no need to argue against the talking points that the enemies of the United States have taught you to parrot.
go sleep, you have a school tomorrow. listen to teacher, hopefully in 15 years you will be slightly less retarded.
It is good to know you were unable to argue against my post so you had to resort to your default childish behaviour.
Btw, quite obvious now that you aren’t American, so kindly shut your misinformation spreading face about our elections.
The only people making more money will be the people that are already rich. Nice try though.
The tariffs only increase US worker wages if they are significant enough to promote domestic manufacturing. If we still can’t produce the widget at home for the same or less expensively, then all we’ve done is create a federal sales tax on Chinese goods.
