I know a lot of languages have some aspects that probably seem a bit strange to non-native speakers…in the case of gendered words is there a point other than “just the way its always been” that explains it a bit better?
I don’t have gendered words in my native language, and from the outside looking in I’m not sure what gendered words actually provide in terms of context? Is there more to it that I’m not quite following?
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There are two main points: agreement and derivation.
Agreement: grammatical gender gives you an easy way to keep track of which word refers to which. Consider for example the following sentence:
- The clock fell over the glass table, and it broke.
What does “it” refer to? It’s ambiguous, it could be either “the clock” or “the glass table” (both things are breakable). In Portuguese however the sentence is completely unambiguous due to the gender system, as the translations show:
- O relógio caiu sobre a mesa de vidro, e ele quebrou. // “ele” he/it = the clock
- O relógio caiu sobre a mesa de vidro, e ela quebrou. // “ela” she/it = the table
It’s only one word of difference; however “ele” he/it must refer to “relógio” clock due to the gender agreement. Same deal with “ela” she/it and “mesa” table.
Latin also shows something similar, due to the syntactically free word order. Like this:
- puer bellam puellam amat. (boy.M.NOM pretty.F.ACC girl.F.ACC loves) = the boy loves the beautiful girl
- puer bellus puellam amat. (boy.M.NOM pretty.M.NOM girl.F.ACC loves) = the handsome boy loves the girl
Note how the adjective between “puer” boy and “puella” girl could theoretically refer to any of those nouns; Latin is not picky with adjective placement, as long as it’s near the noun it’s fine. However, because “puer” is a masculine word and “puella” is feminine, we know that the adjective refers to one if masculine, another if feminine. (Note: the case marks reinforce this, but they aren’t fully reliable.)
The second aspect that I mentioned is derivation: gender gives you a quick way to create more words, without needing new roots for that. Italian examples:
- “bambino” boy vs. “bambina” girl
- “gatto” cat, tomcat vs. “gatta” female cat
- “banana” banana (fruit) vs. “banano” banana plant
- “mela” apple (fruit) vs. “melo” apple tree
Focus on the last two lines - note how the gender system is reused to things that (from human PoV) have no sex or social gender, like trees and their fruits. This kind of extension of the derivation system is fairly common across gendered languages.
Addressing some comments here: English does not have a grammatical gender system. It has a few words that refer to social gender and sex, but both concepts (grammatical gender and social gender) are completely distinct.
That’s specially evident when triggering agreement in a gendered language, as English doesn’t do anything similar. Portuguese examples, again:
- [Sentence] O Ivan é uma pessoa muito alta.
- [Gloss, showing word gender] The.M Ivan.M is a.F person.F very tall.F
- [Translation] Ivan is a very tall person.
Check the adjective, “alta” tall. Even if “Ivan” refers to a man, you need to use the feminine adjective here, because it needs to agree with “pessoa” person - a feminine word. This kind of stuff happens all the time in gendered languages, but you don’t see it e.g. in English.
Holy smoke, thanks for taking the time to write this comment. I wasn’t aware there are practical implications of using gendered nouns. Learned something new today.
Thank you for this wonderful explanation and for taking the time to write it.
That’s the kind of content that make this place so awesome.
Really great comment, thank you for the effort you put into this. That said, I can’t say I feel convinced by the reasoning. Are you suggesting that gender in these languages was an intentional decision to solve the problems you raise? Because as other comments point out, it seems it’s still very possible to have an ambiguous sentence making this seem like an overly confusing addition.
Secondly in your example of gendered language assisting in derivation, surely this ends up with the same problems given that the language only represents a limited number of genders? I do not remotely know Portuguese, but how does this derivation quality help with the word for an apple seed? I presume the same logic can’t apply?
Thanks for your time!
you suggesting that gender in these languages was an intentional decision to solve the problems you raise?
No, I’m not suggesting intention or decision. Most of the time, language works a lot like a biological species: there’s no critter or speaker deciding “we shall have this feature!”, but instead the feature spreads or goes extinct depending on the role that it performs in the language, alongside other features.
My explanation is all about that role. That is the point of grammatical gender, and it explains:
- why it appeared independently across different languages? Clearly the gender systems in Dyirbal, in most Indo-European languages, in [most?] Afro-Asiatic languages are unrelated to each other, but why did they develop that same feature?
- why it survives for so long in a language? For example, the gender system in Russian, Hindi and Spanish backtracks all the way back into Late Proto-Indo-European (6000? years ago).
A pointless feature wouldn’t do it.
I do not remotely know Portuguese, but how does this derivation quality help with the word for an apple seed?
The fruit vs. plant example is from Italian, not Portuguese (see note*).
It doesn’t need to help with the word for an apple seed (IT: seme di mela, lit. “seed of apple”). It’s just an extension, a “bonus” of the system; the core is like bambino/bambina, words referring to human beings, we humans tend to speak a lot about each other.
That said, your question reminds me the noun classes of Bantu languages. Gender is just a specific type of noun class; it’s possible that some language out there would actually use a noun class derivation of their word for apple to refer to apple seeds.
*note, on Portuguese
Fruit trees in Portuguese get an “origin” suffix, -eira; see e.g. maçã (apple) vs. macieira (apple tree) vs. semente de maçã (apple seed). There are a few nouns where the feminine is a specific type of the masculine, like
- ovo (egg) vs. ova (fish eggs)
- casco (shell) vs. casca (bark, peel)
- jarro (jar) vs. jarra (a type of jar, usually with a pointy lip)
- barco (boat) vs. barca (barque)
but that feature was only rarely used, and it is certainly not productive; I think that it backtracks to Latin neuter but I’m not sure. Anyway, derivation in the modern language is mostly restricted to critters and people.
Languages involved naturally. Nothing is an intentional decision.
Yes, it’s still possible to have ambiguity, just like you can have hash collisions in hash tables. But it at least sometimes helps.
Thank you, Today I learned that grammatical gender can in fact have purpose. Some questions though:
In that first example for Agreement, does this depend on the nouns in question coincidentally having different gender, or does the grammar enforce that? (Such as switching one if they would otherwise match - although that might conflict with the Derivation thing.) And can a sentence in those languages refer to 3 or more nouns? That would seem to break the disambiguation effect.
does this depend on the nouns in question coincidentally having different gender
Yup - the example wouldn’t work if both nouns had the same gender. And gender is intrinsic to the noun, you can’t change it (you can change the noun though).
That’s why, usually, languages with a productive gender system keep a comparable amount of nouns in each gender, since this maximises the odds that multiple nouns in the same sentence got different genders.
And can a sentence in those languages refer to 3 or more nouns?
Yup, they can.
In both cases (same gender nouns, or 3+ nouns), the solution is typically the same as in a non-gendered language: you use the noun instead of a pronoun, or rely on context to disambiguate it.
That was a great, concise, technical but simple at the same time explanation, beautifully done. Thanks.
Thanks!
Just here to say I love you and I subscribed to !linguistics@lemmy.ml.
That was very informative, thank you! I learned a bit of Esperanto, and I think Zamenhof was really aware about the derivation part. It really makes learning a new language easier if words with a similar meaning share a root.
Holy hell. Did you just type that out?
Did you just type that out?
Yup. That’s why I’m leveraging examples from PT/IT/Lat.
Bravo. Thanks for taking the time
There’s no point, it’s just how the language developed. It can be useful but it can also be a pain. In my language the phrase “the teacher is late” has two gendered words (teacher and late), so if I say that to you, you will also know the teacher’s gender based on which gender I use. At the same time a writer may run into trouble trying to keep a plot twist under wraps in their story because they can’t write anything without revealing the subject’s gender.
gendered words, plural agreement, conjugations, declensions were all forms of “parity checking” for spoken languages – ways to make sure you were accurately hearing what had been spoken
as writing systems advanced, languages started to drop some of these forms when the written word was considered to be an “accurate” representation – ex. you can see this happening in the transition from Old English → Middle English → Modern English
Once upon a time, English had gendered words just like many other European languages. According to my dad (a retired linguist), the Norman invaders, being non-native speakers, learned a kind of pidgin English with a much simplified grammar they could handle. This eventually developed into a creole which everyone started to speak.
There is no point!
Languages evolve. They are not invented, designed, engineered by people. Human language evolved just like the human body evolved, just like the genome and the microbiome evolved.
There’s probably more to it but the more isn’t the sort of thing that could be explained in documentation.
What I mean by the more isn’t super clear to me. I’ll just say I didn’t fully grasp the Spanish language, which I had studied and spoken for many years, until I smoked a joint with a Swiss girl in college and we listened to some songs being sung in Spanish. All of a sudden I realized there are things you can express in Spanish that you can’t in English.
That may or may not have to do with it being a gendered language; I don’t know. I don’t even know what it is that I saw. I just realized there was some parallel thread running beside the string of words, that I don’t have in English. That you can’t do in English.
It creates an additional connection between the parts of speech you intend to be conceptually linked.
Eg. “He kicked the ball at the park - it was huge!” Was the ball huge or the park? If ‘ball’ and ‘park’ have different genders in your language, then it’s easier to know immediately what ‘it’ represents.
This allows for greater freedom to majorly rearrange a sentence and still be understood. It also helps poetry and LLMs, incidentally, when you can just throw words around and people know which adjective goes with which noun, etc. Not that Chinese poetry ever cared much about that, but that’s a different topic.
Why is it related to gender? I guess they just picked something to relate the new system to the people around them, like picking colours to represent emotions. It’s a clunky 3 category system, but if you’re creating enough ambiguity in your sentences that 3 additional categories of differentiation can’t help with… well. Then you have other conjugation systems you can implement. Looking at you, Finnish. Or you can go the English route and get really strict about your word order.
What if the ball and the park are the same gender?
Then you still have the same issue, but it occurs as maybe a 1/3 chance (where 3 is the genders for Latin, other systems have more/less) instead of as a 100% chance in languages that assign connections based only on word order.
It’s obviously not a perfect solution, but it does significantly reduce ambiguity in phrase construction for languages which use it. And it’s (often) of sufficiently limited complexity that it doesn’t cause too much cognitive overload for most people during a conversation.
It can help with disambiguation of pronouns. Eg. if I’m talking about a city (ciudad, female) and state (estado, male) you can tell which one I mean because the pronoun “it”, neutral in English, has both male (lo) and female (la) forms in Spanish.
It also makes a language more poetic, IMPO.
There is some debate in France about gendered profession names. Conservative want them removed. Feminists are asking for a neutral form. Regular language usually has gender for them.
In terms of utility, it adds information in a tight way. When you use the gendered name, you add the information about the gender of the person. When there is a neutral form, you can also choose to not give this information.
Obviously when your language doesn’t give you this possibility it’s harder to get used to it. From my perspective I’m sometimes put off by the lack of specificity and accuracy, or by the ambiguity of the English language.
It makes some sense for people-related words like a person’s’ occupation. Why are objects gendered though?
This I don’t know but I would suspect it’s a mix of poetry, usage, and the Latin root, at least in French.
Both my native language (Russian) and the one I use the most (Hebrew) have gendered words. The first one has a “middle” neutral gender, and the latter one even has a full set of gendered pronouns, every pronoun except for “I” has a goddamn gender. This shit is endlessly confusing and makes no practical sense except to annoy people using these languages.
That’s one of the reasons why I love English so much, English is nice.
That’s one of the reasons why I love English so much, English is nice.
English is morphologically nice but syntactically painful:
- Adjectives must follow a very specific order unless you don’t mind sounding like a maniac.
- Questions require word order inversion, from SVO to VSO. That would be fine… except that most verbs don’t allow such inversion, so you need to spawn a “do”, let it steal the conjugation from the other verb, and then invert the “do” instead.
- Articles are a convoluted mess in every language using them, full of arbitrary cases. Including English.
- Prepositions are even worse. And English spams them since the only surviving noun case is the genitive/possessive. Oh wait there’s a genitive preposition too! (“of”)
And IMO the interesting part is that the syntactical painfulness - let’s call it complexity - is partially caused by the morphological lack of complexity. Human language requires a certain amount of complexity; if you remove it from the words themselves it’ll end in how the words interact with each other.
English is nice.
English hates you. And me. It just hates. If you think it’s being nice, that’s because it’s trying to lull you into a false sense of security.
Hey, at least “they” for a group of people doesn’t imply the genders of each person in that group (I’m thinking of Spanish ellos/ellas).
This shit is endlessly confusing and makes no practical sense
Identifying the gender of the subject has some practicality.
Disclaimer: Joke!
To help native speakers identify foreigners.
Long ago, and I mean very, very long ago, in all cultures, when you named a child, the name would be derived from the language, something still common in the main Asian languages. Of course, when you have a name system, you need to separate names by gender, so they would separate their dictionary by gender. Over time, however, names became separate from words (so we got people named, for example, “Johnny Smith” instead of “Cloud Bridge”) and the gendered rule just stuck around (furthermore it explains why Western cultures are accustomed to naming kids after relatives, because we no longer have the whole baby name book at the top of our heads because it’s separate from the dictionary). This means, no, it won’t ruin the language ecosystem to simply remove the gendered rule.
This doesn’t really answer your question but it reminded me of the following that I think is somewhat relevant.
I was listening to a podcast several years ago that was discussing a study that was done about the effects of gendered words in various languages. It was rather interesting. They did things like showed people a picture of a bridge and asked them to describe it. In languages that used a masculine gender for ‘bridge’ it was generally described in ways that highlighted features such as strength, solidness, etc. And for languages that used a feminine gender it tended to be described more artistically, talking about it’s grace or curves etc. If I remember correctly, they even studied people fluent in both languages and the answers would vary along those same lines depending which language they were asked/responded in.
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Even though the main reason is that it’s allways has been so, I can see two minor arguments that haven’t been said here yet:
- The gender of some words may vary between different regions (still within one language), so used gender gives you aditional information about the speaker.
(From Czech perspective this is not really a thing, becouse before you stumble across one of the few words that have this property, you can usually estimate the origin of the speaker by another signs.) - By asigning a gender to animals, you’re proner to percieve them as living persons, compared with a language that classifies them as inanimate (English, “it”).
(I am not backed by any scientific study here, it’s only my feeling; and you could also claim that better solution would be ungendered language without animate/inanimate distinction, or classifying animals as animates.)
- The gender of some words may vary between different regions (still within one language), so used gender gives you aditional information about the speaker.
Language is just specific expression. It evolves alongside the human brain as we become more and more socially complex, we needed to be able to express ourselves or information to each other which wasn’t easy with things like grunts and pointing. Things like facial expressions are some of the earliest examples of pre spoken language, with which one could express emotion, as it is not only the foundation of humanity’s perception, but also effective at giving others enough info to infer where to look for something. This could be why it is so innate a language within the human mind that even people across different cultures can comprehend. But even that isn’t enough to express everything and so eventually spoken then written language evolved, allowing us to be specific with each other and allowed us to evolve into societal beings rather than pack animals. Each type of language has its own quirks from its evolution, and will continue to evolve. Some languages allow specificity in ways incomprehensible to those who don’t understand the language itself, gendered languages being one such example. A gendered language allows one to apply societal constructs and in a way stereotypes to objects in a way that allows metaphor to imply information. Another more mundane example of this same type of implicit metaphor that may be better understood by one who doesn’t speak such a language is tone. This is implied just as facial expression implied what spoken language would one day become. It will be a wonder to see where language evolves in the future, especially as technology augments our ability to transfer and encode information, as all any of that really is is just information.
EDIT: Just fyi I did make all this up and have no qualifications to say any of this, but it seems right and accurate so please someone prove me wrong, otherwise I will assume my deductions are correct.
