I really like cheap stamped stainless knives. In the photo are a Viking, a Kiwi, and something unbranded. Total was $8.20 USD. They are garbage, the handles are terrible, though the ridiculously small Deba has wood scales. They sharpen beautifully.
While you huff and curse under your breath, I have owned custom made Japanese knives, vintage carbon steel Sabatier, as well as all the other stuff, Wusthoff, Global, evs. They aren’t better, just much more expensive.
I am happiest with a cheap carbon steel cleaver (bit of a misnomer as these are really slicers) or a stamped stainless blade. Not Victorinox though, they have too much Nickel and Chromium so they aren’t as prone to rusting. It makes them a bitch to sharpen.
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What do you mean they sharpen beautifully? You also say they’re garbage is that just because the handles?
Cheaper stainless often has less Chromium and Nickel. Those add to cost, increase corrosion resistance, but make the steel harder to sharpen.
I steel my knives before every use, when they take small flakes off my thumbnail I consider them ready to use for cooking, then I hone them on whatever pants I am wearing. I have issues undoubtedly, but I really like my knives sharp.
I also like Bees, a lot.
Yo big ups for the Bees
I guess I’m just confused if you’re praising these types of knives or admonishing them
Absolutely praising them, cheap knives are great. I love my custom made Japanese knives, the craftsmanship is incredible, perfectly fitted to how I want to cut. But what I usually reach for is a cheap piece of junk.
'It’s the Jungian thing Sir"
I never really understood knives, especially kitchen knives. I work with them often… but the quality differences never quite made sense. I get the high carbon = easier to sharpen, etc. But isn’t that one of the lowest qualities of steel? Meaning you can stamp that shit out on the cheap and it’s really about how any given chef manages, sharpens and hones his/her blade?
IDK. Seems like another person stealing my turd, shellacking it, and selling it back to me at an extreme premium…
A hard steel will hold an edge longer, but will be harder to sharpen and is more brittle.
A softer steel will need to be resharpened more often, but is easier to sharpen and less brittle.
For like 99% of the population, a dollar store knife will hold an edge long enough and will be easy to sharpen.
I’m too lazy to link because i’m on mobile, but outdoors555 on YouTube recently made a video where he sharpens a dollar store knife and hack away on a piece of 2x4 and the knife stays sharp throughout the ordeal.
So yeah, overall, it’s how you maintain and sharpen your knife that will make a lot of difference.
A honing steel is only helpful if your knife isn’t properly sharpened because it realigns the burr. Just take an extra minute to remove the burr properly and your knife will stay sharp for a while.
What do you mean they sharpen beautifully
The softer the material, the easier it is to sharpen (and dull). There’s some sweet spot there but I imagine it’s much of a preference (and depends on the type of knife), considering knives have been from so many different alloys and differing hardening
Indeed there is a sweet spot. I would rather trade sharpness and more careful maintenance for corrosion resistance. Others would not. I had a housemate that tossed knives in the sink and left them there for days, their Victorinox only showed light rust. You couldn’t really cut anything with them but that didn’t seem to be the point.
I also had a partner who loved Victorinox parers and serrated parers, they could do anything with them and rarely used anything else. Your mileage may vary of course, and I bitched everytime I sharpened them, which was weekly.
The cheapo carbon steel cleaver is my favorite knife in my set. I got a block of Victorinox knives as a gift and yeah they work fairly well (you’re right about sharpening being annoying tho), but the $13 cleaver is where it’s at. It’s sharp, it sharpens well and that style of knife is just so useful. I pull out two other knives generally these days, the serrated one for bread and a ceramic one for tomatoes. The rest? Cleaver time, baybee!
Also, mincing things with the cleaver is great. Mincing things with TWO cleavers? Now that’s joy.
The cheap, but well made carbon steel cleavers from https://www.wokshop.com/ or your local Asian market are very good. They will discolor your onions if you don’t oil them (the blades, not the onions. Are you getting enough iron?).
I feel I am getting on a tangent. Victorinox sucks and is overpriced despite what Americas Test Kitchen says, Kenji agrees with me.
Buy some cheap crap, a decent steel, have people ask ‘why isn’t there any hair on that part of your forearm? That’s a bit weird’ and seriously show some veggies what’s what.
The site you linked is where I got my cleaver and I vouch for exactly what you’ve said. Though I haven’t seen an issue with my onions. I don’t oil the blade often but I do use it to chop meat (and thus their fats) once a week.
I’m pretty sure I got their #3 veggie cleaver, though I’m not really sure the difference between that and their carbon steel cleavers. Works fine for meat, but I don’t chop bones with it.
Got any tips on sharpening? I feel sloppy whenever I’m doing it and it seems like you take a pride in it, so if I could pick your brain on how to sharpen my cleavers better, I’d appreciate it!
For sharpening I use whetstones, I really like this www.amazon.com/King-4000-Combination-Waterstone-KING/dp/B01LX6AIY3 though the price comes up for me at $50. I paid half that, though it will last a lifetime if it isn’t abused.
The 800 is for stuff fresh from the flea market/Daiso (their knives are awesome and cheap) the 4000 is fine (for me) for daily showing veg and meat who’s boss. For straight razors I use 10k.
Regular use of a steel (daily for me because I have issues) means I only sharpen once a month. If you don’t, or you are using different steel in your knives you may want to sharpen more or less frequently.
I’m looking to actually buy myself a chef’s knife. I really only care about having a long lasting knife, that’s not horrible. You would recommend a daiso knife? (Daiso the Japanese Asian import store, right?)
Daiso is Japan’s version of a dollar store (though admittedly far, far better than American dollar stores), so I would not go there for a long-lasting knife. Dishes? Absolutely. Knife? No.
I had a $5 knife from Daiso, the balance was very nice, I really liked it. I bought it around 2008? A friend has it now, they like it. Cheap knives are rarely full tang and will rust inside the handle, I drip oil into the handle, dry them carefully, and they last for a long time.
My recommendation would be to get a cheap knife like that and a nice carbon steel cleaver like The Wok Shop, or your local Asian market sells. With those two and less than $20 outlay you can do most anything. Breaking down Winter Squash is a pain, but doable, or you can get something heavy and brutish just for that if it’s you thing.
I’m not speaking on cooking knives as I already have a set of handmade carbon steel knives from a local blacksmith. I also have a cheap chinese made 1075 carbon steel cleaver from amazon. (One I had to modify to get it to be what I wanted.) I’m speaking from pocket knife experience.
I daily carry a Spyderco Tenacious, which if you know steels, has a pretty soft steel in the grand scheme of things. (8cr13MoV)
I’ve attempted trying knives with the “super steels” and it’s such a chore to sharpen them when they get dull that the time just isn’t worth it.
I honestly prefer the D2 from Boker as it holds an edge far better, but still is only slightly annoying to sharpen.
There are pros and cons to all these metals but that harder crap I tend to save for jobs that actually need that kind of steel. (Lean meats, etc.) Chopping some veggies wouldn’t call for me to break out my nice knives as they take too much care to keep in good condition for just chopping up some spring onions or what-not.
There is something to be said for a knife to be able to make a simple job that much smoother and easier for sure. Not worth the trade-off in total time consumed though. Cheap, shitty wal-mart knife and a honing rod > $800 1095 carbon steel Japanese super knife.
I modified my cleaver too. I like to choke up on the blade and the spine was sharp. I ground the spine down and added a rest to the back of the blade.
Here’s what I have here: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07HNWBVGB/
Had to remove that tab behind the edge because it was annoying. Had to chamfer the spine because it was sharp as shit. Then I had to stabilize the shitty handle it came with because it had splits and holes in it from their shitty attempt at stabilizing it.
Even after all that though it’s still a great knife for the price. Just needed a little love.
I guess I can understand what you are saying. I have lived out of my vehicle off and on for about ten years, and having a full tine, good “chopping” knife that I can sharpen with what I might use on a shovel is really nice. I have had the same maine knife for 15 years. It is ok. I don’t have to work on it much. It says “Chicago Cutlery” on it. It has been put up wet, been used in snow, and I have no money invested in it. It works great.
I also worked in a kitchen once, with really nice knives, it isn’t that nice. But it was cheap. Full tine, and not that weird serrated but not serrated.
I had a pair of $40 knives from ikea that lasted years (more than a decade, maybe close to two). They were moly steel so they didn’t loose edge quickly, and had decent balance.
I eventually upgraded to Whustoff ikon classics (the POM handle,) for the 3 knives I use (8” chef, boning, pairing.)
The reality is you can sharpen a shitty Walmart butter knife to a razor’s edge very easily. Being sharp doesn’t make a good knife- it’s the steel quality that affects edge retention; as well as the balance and the grip’s contour/shape; the stiffness and thickness of the blade, etc.
Imo, the cheapo ikea knives performed just fine. For their value… they’re quite probably better than whustoffs, no question. They’re both made with reasonable quality steel, both full tang, with similar contours in the blade profile and handle, etc.
But if you consider side by side, the whustoffs do perform much better. It’s not any one thing- the balance is better, the blades are thinner, stiffer where they they’re supposed to be, etc.
There are a lot of small things that add up to that. The distal taper, the taper from spine to edge (in the ikeas they’re flat in both directions,); the steel is better and holds edges longer while being more easily, less strain on my hand;
Ultimately, you don’t need whustoffs or anything expensive- and a lot of your expensive knives are shit knives with marketing (especially “japanese” knives of dubious provenance).
But if you can afford them, they are better. Especially if you cook a lot. If they’re “better enough” to justify their cost is a personal decision. My mom uses Costco steak knives for everything. (And in part because they can’t keep knives sharp so don’t see the point. They float around the sink… get stuffed in the dishwasher, etc,)
My favorite knives are vintage MAC. The handles suck, the tip is rounded, and they have a stupid hanging ‘cross’ thing at the tip which just catches debris. Use a magnetic knife rack like a normal person. They were $90 new. If blood clots on the brain were your thing I’m sure that was a good deal. It’s a $20 knife.
I had a few from the flea market. I ground tips on them and made new handles. They have a great balance between whippy and thin enough to do nice slices of Shitake mushrooms or Shallots, and strong enough to break down Squash.
That’s an example of an overpriced Japanese knife, yes.
That doesn’t mean all knives more than $20 bucks are overpriced, however. I would also contend that the modifications you made; make it no longer a MAC.
i wouldn’t consider the kiwi a shitty knife. It’s a cheap knife, yes, dulls quickly, yes, but it’s a perfect slicer.
We have knives that cost 10 or 15 kiwis, with good steels and impeccable handles, i still reach out to kiwi for quick preparations
