https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/39616364?scrollToComments=true
https://lemmy.world/u/sag@lemm.ee
https://lemmy.world/modlog/?userId=1957570
Underage, you will be unbanned when you turn 18 (happy birthday in advance)
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/39616364?scrollToComments=true
https://lemmy.world/u/sag@lemm.ee
https://lemmy.world/modlog/?userId=1957570
Underage, you will be unbanned when you turn 18 (happy birthday in advance)
Let me go over this again for you.
When you joined lemmy.world, you agreed to their ToS. I have not joined lemmy.world, therefore their ToS does not apply to me. They owe me nothing, and cannot delete my account nor any of my users from lemmy.zip. they can ban my users from lemmy.world, remove their posts etc, but they’re only doing that to their copies of the posts. The original copies are on lemmy.zip and lemmy.worlds actions do not affect any other instances that has a copy of the lemmy.zip original.
Therefore they do not provide my users with a service. If lemmy.world shut down tomorrow, lemmy.zip users would still have service while lemmy.world users would not.
Similarly a website i have never been to might have a ToS, but I have not agreed to that ToS, therefore it cannot apply to me. Said website is not providing me a service.
So we’ve established who is providing who a service in this scenario, which is lemm.ee providing a service to their user. That user isn’t using lemmy.world, therefore isn’t receiving a service and isn’t beholden to their ToS.
Lemmy.world have banned that user from their website because the user is saying their under 18. But they claim to have done this because in their ToS they say they don’t provide a service to under 18s. But that user has not agreed to the ToS.
While lemmy.world is entitled to do whatever they want imo, it’s their website, to say it’s because of their ToS is incorrectly applying it. They aren’t providing a service to the user. Lemm.ee is.
Again, they can do whatever they want, it’s their website, but its not how it applies to lemmy.zip. If I was to enact that policy, it would be under the code of conduct as that is what is applied to moderation of remote instances.
Except if you access Lemmy.world, as the ToS point out.
… okay? How is any of that relevant?
This is like saying “I only made you a poster; I didn’t suck your dick or do your taxes, so I didn’t provide you a service.”
You… really need to talk with a lawyer, man. I know Lemmy admins are amateurs, but this is insane.
At what point did the user “access” lemmy.world? Did their device connect to lemmy.world at any point during them making their posts? No. It did not. That’s not how federation works.
It’s relevant because it shows that lemmy.world has no ownership or control over the original, which is where the barrier for a service would be. I’m not sure how i can make that any clearer.
Again, I have no idea what you’re on about with the dick sucking. Saying I have no idea of the law while spouting totally irrelevant arguments is a touch disingenuous.
Why is ‘their device’ the magic piece of the puzzle for you? If you use a proxy, are you free from all ToS?
They submitted content to Lemmy.world. Fuck’s sake.
You can’t make it any clearer. Your position is clear. It’s also nonsensical.
“Giving examples of services you haven’t provided does not preclude what you have provided from being a service as well.”
Federation isn’t a proxy. You’re conflating two different things here. If you use a proxy to access a website, you yourself have still accessed that website.
If I access a lemmy community on a remote server, I am not accessing that remote community directly, I am still on my home instance, accessing a local copy. For example, I am still subscribed to boardgames@feddit.de. I could go create a post there. But guess what. Feddit.de doesn’t exist anymore. The only place that post will go is lemmy.zip because feddit.de is not there to federate it out. Is feddit.de suddenly providing me a service? No! It doesn’t exist anymore! I am interacting with lemmy.zips local copy of that community.
It’s exactly the same for a live instance. I am not submitting anything directly to the other instance. Instead I am submitting it to my home server, which is letting the remote server know about it. The user has at no point interacted with, accessed, shared any information with, or directly in any way had anything to do with the remote server.
That is a simple fact about how federation works. Can you tell me at what point that user has interacted with lemmy.world’s website?
You’re literally just describing submitting content by proxy. Like, it cannot get any simpler. The only way this would not be submitting content by proxy would be if the home server you were submitting to had no connection to .world whatsoever, and the transfer of content to .world was done without the posting user’s knowledge.
The moment they submitted content to a comm whose instance is Lemmy.world. “It went through their home instance first” is literally arguing that submitting content by proxy excuses one from ToS, which…
Fuck man, really, consult a lawyer. Or articles on Mastodon legal issues for instance hosts.
I’ve let you drag me off track, that’s my own fault. I actually kind of get your point about a proxy service, but we’re obviously both looking at this in different ways. In your way, that would automatically mean that every post you make, even locally on lemmy.world, as it is sent to every single server that lemmy.world federates with, makes you subject to every single ToS for those servers. That’s just not true though. That’s not how it works.
Importantly, back to the key point, the ToS for lemmy.world say:
They are not using nor are they accessing the “website”. Is their message being sent between servers? Sure, that’s federation. Did the user use or access the website? No.
If that’s the line lemmy.world wants to take, they need to update their ToS to reflect that federated users are also subject to that rule and it applies to federated traffic. At least they’d have a leg to stand on then.
As it stands, they’ve incorrectly interpreted their own ToS. Again, this is analogous to email. Sending an email does not automatically make you subject to an agreement with the receiving company, with a document you’ve not had sight of. They can still moderate that email as they see fit, but the receiving party isn’t providing a service.
Anyway I’ve said all there is to say. I’m sure we’ll continue to disagree.