https://archive.ph/hMZPi

Remember when tech workers dreamed of working for a big company for a few years, before striking out on their own to start their own company that would knock that tech giant over?

Then that dream shrank to: work for a giant for a few years, quit, do a fake startup, get acqui-hired by your old employer, as a complicated way of getting a bonus and a promotion.

Then the dream shrank further: work for a tech giant for your whole life, get free kombucha and massages on Wednesdays.

And now, the dream is over. All that’s left is: work for a tech giant until they fire your ass, like those 12,000 Googlers who got fired six months after a stock buyback that would have paid their salaries for the next 27 years.

We deserve better than this. We can get it.

  • Zeth0s@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    17
    arrow-down
    55
    ·
    edit-2
    1 year ago

    Calling google workers proletariat is out of touch and borderline insulting to real working class.

    3-month salary for a junior at google is what a “real” proletarian do in a full year, with addition of pension, stock options, benefits and bonuses

    • darq@kbin.social
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      88
      arrow-down
      4
      ·
      1 year ago

      The line dividing working class from owning class is not their monthly salary. It’s their relationship to capital. Do they work for their living, or do they own for their living?

      • _number8_@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        19
        ·
        1 year ago

        same reason why being an athlete sucks – even though you’re making insane sums, the guys at the top are making far more than that, without putting their body on the line in any way whatsoever, indefinitely [whereas most players retire in their 30s, if they’re lucky enough to have that long of a career]

        • Not_mikey@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          8
          ·
          1 year ago

          They are petit bourgeoisie, they work for a living but their interests are aligned with capital as they’re hired by the owners to extract as much surplus labor as they can and will often get bonuses tied to how well they do that, they’re the overseer.

          Software developers work and contribute to the company, they are the ones whose surplus labor is being extracted. They may get a larger chunk of the value they create but they don’t get all of it. They are still in class conflict with the owners to get all the value they create. They’re house slaves, treated better but still fundamentally against the owner.

          • nodsocket@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            Would you say that the only people who are not proletariat are those who are “financially independent” in the sense that they don’t need to work for an income?

            • Not_mikey@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              No, I’d say that “financially independent” really means your dependent on capitalism, and that dependency will lead you to defend capitalism from any challenges. That is the bourgeois position and puts you against the proletariat. Their are other classes though besides proletariat and bourgeoisie with different relations to capital. Petite bourgeoisie are neither bourgeoisie nor proletariat but there interests align with the bourgeoisie/capital and against the proletariat, but they are not completely dependent on capitalism so they won’t defend it as zealously. There is also the independent worker class who work for themselves outside a corporate structure, eg. An independent farmer, whose interests don’t align with either the bourgeoisie or proletariat.

        • Shadywack@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          9
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          Difference in stock options as compensation for executives vs managers or the entire middle management layer is beyond insane. Like exponentially more.

        • Bye@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          5
          ·
          1 year ago

          Some. But at firms of even modest size, though, a CEO receives ownership of capital, not just salary, as compensation.

      • Zeth0s@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        8
        arrow-down
        41
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        Google engineers have capital, both invested and cash. Enough to start their own company if they wanted. They simply decide that living as googler is easier and more convenient

        • darq@kbin.social
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          56
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          1 year ago

          As long as their livelihood is dependent on labouring, they’re working class. You should show some solidarity, rather than trying to divide the working class.

          • Zeth0s@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            9
            arrow-down
            37
            ·
            edit-2
            1 year ago

            Even bourgeois class works. Even aristocrats… CEOs work.

            Working is not what identifies proletariat.

            I show solidarity, I have former colleagues working at google. They have all my solidarity, but they are not proletariat.

            An average google engineer have more capital than most CEOs around the world.

            They need to unionize, but they are not proletariat. My company is unionized, and we are not proletariat. There are unionized people owning multiple porsches. They are not proletariat. They simply find easier to live out of a good salary instead of the stress of having their own company

            • darq@kbin.social
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              34
              arrow-down
              2
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              I didn’t say they didn’t work. I said that their livelihood isn’t dependant on labouring.

              I don’t know what you gain out of gatekeeping the working class. The whole invention of the middle class has been a tool by the owning class to separate the working class.

              • Zeth0s@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                5
                arrow-down
                16
                ·
                1 year ago

                I gain nothing other than I prefer politics to be well directed. Unions for tech jobs is clearly needed, and it is fine. As said I work for an unionized company.

                Problem of putting together real working class and people like me, or Google engineers that are even in a better position, it’s bad to orient policies that helps the real working class. I want everybody to enjoy the privileges of mine and google engineers. Putting as in the same bucket as deliveroo drivers is not good for society. As society, we need to really works on the struggle of real proletariat. As tech workers we are far from the priority. Tech workers need to unionize, yes, but they are not proletariat.

                • darq@kbin.social
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  27
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  You keep saying that it’s bad, but you haven’t actually said why. Just this nebulous idea that standing together is somehow bad. Worker’s rights benefit all workers. And the more people demanding them, the better. Even more so if the people demanding them have greater access to the resources needed to actually make a difference.

                  Never once has “divided we conquer” been true.

                • Franzia@lemmy.blahaj.zone
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  23
                  arrow-down
                  3
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Tell me you know fuck all about unionization without telling me. Its all the same. We all, the working class, are advocating for the same fucking rights, boundaries, and protections. Deliveroo driver and tech employee both wanna go home at a reasonable time of night and sleep well knowing they can pay their bills.

            • MikuNPC@lemm.ee
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              18
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              Working at Google is not what it used to be 20 years ago. Not only would an average CEO be better off but there are plenty of other tech companies better to work at as well. Google engineers are salary workers not much different than any other

              • Zeth0s@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                7
                arrow-down
                23
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                Those I know drive tesla and porsche, spend their long holidays traveling the world in expensive places, and have higher entry salaries than management in banks, with larger bonuses.

                But apparently you guys know different engineers that struggle to survive… Fine with that. I might know only the lucky ones.

                Otherwise we are all proletariat. Which is a news for me. I can finally complain with my “real proletarian” friends that I am as well a proletarian sharing the struggle, although I am definitely not.

                Anyway, I will stop arguing. Apparently labeling google engineers as proletariat is an important topic in Lemmy, that users do with extra passion

                • darq@kbin.social
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  22
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Anyway, I will stop arguing. Apparently labeling google engineers as proletariat is an important topic in Lemmy, that users do with extra passion

                  You are the one who came in and insisted on specific labels. People disagree with you. Don’t pretend this was our passion, it was yours.

                  • Zeth0s@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    arrow-down
                    6
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    1 year ago

                    Title of this post is literally the label I commented on: proletariat

        • huginn@feddit.it
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          24
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          1 year ago

          I had spent 6 years fastidiously saving to have 20k in investments when I got hired by Google.

          I was laid off in the wave 9 months later.

          So no: I didn’t (and don’t) have enough money to just start my own company.

          It’s workers of the world unite not workers of the world only allow people who match your purity test. If you’re not with us, you’re part of the problem.

          • SCB@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            arrow-down
            20
            ·
            1 year ago

            I spent 6 years saving $20,000 in investments

            He said without a trace of irony.

                • theparadox@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  11
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  Jesus Christ, I guess the capitalists are still winning. Keep us fighting amongst ourselves so we never unite. What, exactly, would convince you to have solidarity with a person able to save 3k a year? To quit and work for less? To donate all non-living expenses to charity until their QOL is on par with yours?

                  Seriously though, there is no reason why labor at all levels can’t work together to improve the system and demand better treatment across the board.

                  • SCB@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    arrow-down
                    8
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    1 year ago

                    I hope the capitalists will always be winning. Capitalism is awesome.

                    Also the person you’re talking about saved that money and invested it, making them a capitalist.

                    Class solidarity is nonsense.

                    until their QOL is on par with yours

                    I make a lot of money and live in a moderate COL area. It’s almost certain my QOL is higher than theirs.

                    Fun fact: almost no one has the money to just start a business from scratch. That’s why investors exist. Banks give out business loans all the time. That’s capitalism, and that’s why it’s awesome.

                • Stumblinbear@pawb.social
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  You know it’s not terribly difficult to save a couple hundred a month so long as you’re not making minimum wage and budget for it

            • huginn@feddit.it
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              4
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              6 years saving 20k is legitimately the “skip lattes and cancel Netflix” levels of saving.

              It’s $270 a month extra.

              Only saving $270 a month in NYC means 1 month of layoffs wipes out 6 months of saving in rent alone.

              If you don’t see the violence inherent in that system then you’re fucking blind.

      • Zeth0s@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        10
        arrow-down
        23
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        I am not a gate keeper. I work in an unionized company in fintech. But I also recognize that calling me “proletarian” is detrimental for battles of real proletariat. Because I have a better salary than a medical doctor with a 5th of the stress. And I don’t make near google salary. I have former colleagues who went to google… They are not absolutely struggling. They need to unionize? Surely. But let’s keep it real, use words properly, because there are people in the current economy who are struggling. Proletariat means that the only “capital” owned by someone is their children. It evolved to mean working class, where only capital is ability to do a work.

        Google engineers have real capital invested in stock market and pension funds, a great salary and benefits, transferable skills, and their biggest asset is their knowledge. They need to unionize only to fight back to mass lay offs, and have more saying on the company direction. Other than that they are doing pretty fine.

        • MikuNPC@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          13
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          I work in tech, not Google but I am compensated similarly. The reason you are getting my downvotes is because you’re missing the point. We worked our asses off to get where we are only to say we’re “not struggling” anymore and have early retirement plans in place because we were thoughtful in our career choices and personal budget. That’s a lot different from someone who had a retirement plan set from birth or doesn’t need to work for a living.

          Ultimately as long as tech workers continue to sell their labor then they are working class.

          • Zeth0s@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            arrow-down
            13
            ·
            edit-2
            1 year ago

            Than read again my comment. You are not proletariat. I am not proletariat. A manager at your bank is not proletariat. A doctor is not proletariat. We face issues of life, but we are absolutely privileged compared to proletariat

            I grew up in one of the poorest region of Europe. To study I had to live in 2 of the worst ghettos of UK. There you see proletariat.

            Anyone who call google engineers proletariat is as out of touch as a wall street ceo.

            And I am surprised how lemmy can be this out of touch with the real word

            • thoro@lemmy.ml
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              13
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              Stop using the word “proletariat” when you clearly do not understand what it means and clearly have not read any of the theory from which the word was popularized

              “Proletariat” != “impoverished”

              • Zeth0s@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                11
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                I grew up reading gramsci… You are here claiming that modern version of petite bourgeois are proletariat. We need the “we are not the same” meme.

            • theparadox@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              8
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              The difference between the people you call proletariat and the people you refuse to call proletariat is often luck. Luck is fickle and can swing both ways. A manager at a bank is absolutely proletariat, they’ve just been given a bit more money and told they’re no longer proletariat. This is because it’s way easier to keep workers and management at each other’s throats than to have everyone target the real source of the “orders from above”.

            • MikuNPC@lemm.ee
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              7
              ·
              1 year ago

              Obviously not everyone has the same situation and some people are more privileged than others. But there is a huge difference between someone who has to work everyday VS someone who doesn’t. That doctor has to go to work, same as the programmer, or the manager. They all have unique lifestyles but they are all workers. They are the proletariat

      • Zeth0s@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        arrow-down
        10
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        The whole piece that we are commenting is a guy who said that some people were not proletariat and now they are. It is a gut piece. He’s the one deciding that some people are now randomly proletariat

    • Franzia@lemmy.blahaj.zone
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      9
      ·
      1 year ago

      Dog the shadeholders who let google pay you that high wage to convince people to join this profession also own the fucking overpriced housing and grocery stores that take it riiiight back.