“By the time it was over, four Israeli hostages had been brought home alive and mostly unscathed, at least physically, and at least 274 Palestinians, and an Israeli commando, had been killed.”
Holy shit. What a clusterfuck.
Literally hundreds of civilians killed to rescue 4 hostages. I don’t know what happened but I can guarantee we will be hearing more about it.
Not a huge fan of the title but this is breaking news and I think the AP can be trusted to at least get the basics right.
I don’t see a problem with the title. That’s literally what happened. It makes no judgments.
Why are we still using the word “scores”
Edit for the haters: go ask someone tomorrow how much a “score” is. Most people would have to look it up, which makes it inappropriate for a headline where “hundreds” is more appropriate.
Because “dozens” is less than “scores?”
12 < 20.
What would be better?
Maybe hundreds?
Scores is such an 1800s word. It’s simply not used in today’s vernacular, and I’m not sure why you’re defending it.
I wasn’t defending anything. I literally asked what would be better.
Apparently asking what would be better was bad.
Why not
I don’t know, maybe for the reasons I already mentioned
I think it feels reminiscent of an explainer and that kind of gives me the ick. Maybe I’m being silly though
I can guarantee we will be hearing more about it.
Huh? Ratios of 300 innocents per 1 terrorists killed are now the norm and we are definitely not hearing more about. It gets buried by the next “accident” where by “accident” destroy a hospital/school/refugee camp full of people
How many people would you be willing to let the military kill to rescue your child who had been taken hostage?
My answer is “anyone who gets in the way”
Let’s take it to an extreme. By this logic, you’d be okay with killing everyone on earth to rescue your child. This includes me and my children. This is insane.
To answer directly I wouldn’t be okay with the military killing hundreds of civilians to save anyone of my family, myself included. Not sure where my number is but it’s at least an order of magnitude lower.
I don’t see that as insane at all. Why should I put anyone else’s lives above my own children?
Congrats, you just found how terrorism is created. By violence. You just openly admitted that you will turn willfully a terrorist if the right conditions are met, e.g. someone endangers your child.
Now imagine how many Palestinian parents lost their children in this war. How do you think they feel?
And now imagine you were on the opposite side. How would you feel if someone kills your child, in the pursuit of saving their own? Would you still be so cool?
And quite possibly killed three more hostages in the action. Hamas is claiming it and the IDF is denying it. But considering that the four hostages saved were being held in the same place as one of the higher ups, if the IDF has just been bombing every other family home of Hamas members (remember the Where’s Daddy AI system?), then it seems quite likely they could kill hostages in the process.
Fuck Hamas for keeping hostages in a refugee camp, though
Yes fuck Hamas, but where else do you keep them? Not like they’ve got equipped POW camps or secure bunkers.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
KHAN YOUNIS, Gaza Strip (AP) — They arrived in the middle of the day, when the squat concrete buildings of the Nuseirat refugee camp are stifling and the narrow streets outside are filled with people.
Hagari declined to say how the Israeli forces made their way to the heart of Nuseirat, a crowded, built-up refugee camp in central Gaza dating back to the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.
Chief Inspector Arnon Zamora, an officer in an elite police commando unit, was mortally wounded during the break-in, in which all the Hamas guards were killed, Amos Harel, a veteran defense correspondent, wrote in Israel’s Haaretz newspaper.
Palestinian militants armed with machine-guns and rocket-propelled grenades opened fire on the rescuers, as Israel called in heavy strikes from land and air to cover their evacuation to the coast.
Mohamed al-Habash, another displaced Palestinian, was in the Nuseirat market looking for humanitarian aid or inexpensive food when the heavy bombing began.
At the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital in the nearby town of Deir al-Balah, the dead and wounded arrived in waves — men, women and children.
The original article contains 1,067 words, the summary contains 179 words. Saved 83%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
I am still surprised by how people get (understandably) outraged at the IDF online but seem to forget that Hamas took those hostages in the first place. A lot of this bloodshed could be stopped right now if Hamas released them.
Sure, the Israeli government is fucking insane, but there are two sides fighting this war.
Fuck me for expecting the non terrorist to have better standards?
You seem to forget that israel took hostages in the first place and the reason Hamas kidnapped people is literally to swap them for the hostages kidnapped by israel.
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I am glad you have discovered the moral inconsistency of your argument. We can now conclude both sides should release their hostages.
Now remind men which side is open to a hostage swap without bloodshed and which side isn’t?
That’s my point here, blaming just one side makes no sense. Both sides have been committing atrocities for decades.
Yet one side is trying to reach a peaceful solution. Hamas.
You can be mad about Hamas using violence but we have left them no other option.
In the West Bank israel is committing Genocide as well. And those people have been trying the peaceful way for decades. And we do not condemn israel for doing so. In fact we keep supporting them and sending them the weapons to commit Genocide and help colonists annex more land.
Israel has made it extremely clear that they will never agree to a peaceful resolution unless they are forced into it. Both with words as with actions, they verbatimly state that they will never agree to let Palestinians have a state.
So no, there is no both sides. There is one side constantly punching the other and the only reason the other side hits back is because it wants the israeli side to stop hitting them.
I don’t see Hamas as a “side”. I see them as evil fucking terrorists willing to use their own people as shields.
How many times have we seen this, though? People take human shields all the time in and outside of wars. The answer is never to ignore the shields. Those are fucking people.
Both sides are fucking monsters in this conflict… But Israel is emphatically more successful at killing civilians. It’s literally a fact at this stage, with mountains of evidence.
Also the IDF was fired upon when they raided. That makes this just war. Hamas chose the war zone.
Also
the IDFHamas was fired upon when they raided in October. That makes this just war.HamasIsrael chose the war zone.Swap the word Hamas with israel every time you think there’s a great argument to post. Helps to avoid advocating for the murder of civilians like some crazy extremist.
An extremist would say that this can’t end until one side kills the other, so might as well get it over with.
I don’t believe that. I think as humans we have an obligation to try for peace without murdering half a million people. Unlike most people here, I want to believe that someday both sides can find a way to peace.
But if you insist that one side is good and one side is bad, then this can’t end well.
I would argue that one side is fighting to achieve peace while the other side is fighting for the destruction of a population and the annexation of their land.
Remind me again who is rejecting the ceasefire offers.
I would argue that one side is fighting to achieve peace
Hilarious. Which side is that?
(The second part I won’t argue. The inevitable annexation is deplorable.)
Hamas is has laid out a very clear and peace plan and has even agreed to a 2 state solution.
Objectively looking at the situation one cannot say that there are two sides which do not want peace.
Only one side does not want peace, and that is israel.
If Hamas hasn’t given up their hostages, they must not be that interested in peace.
You’re also a racist that believes all Palestinians want to kill all Israelis.
You state this openly, and then post a link to a study that doesn’t make that claim at all or anything resembling it and call it a source. Which, of course, isn’t how sources work. This is how sources work: https://lemmy.ml/post/15906506/11178832 The important bit there is that the source actually shows what I said it shows because I’m not a bad faith liar that enjoys justifying genocide.
You’re already insisting one side is good and one side is bad when you intentionally, and surreptitiously lie to try and get people to think your racist statement is true, hoping they don’t actually click through to your so-called sources.
So, please, pardon me if I don’t believe your bullshit pretending you want peace between the two sides.
Yes, “lemmy.ml” is how sources work.
No, sources link by linking to the thing you say you’re linking to.
In this example, I’m linking to your disgusting racist lie in your post that you also appended a source to that didn’t corroborate your racist lie.
I’m going to be curious to see if you end up editing out the proof of your racism eventually in the future.
hamas should have just surrendered and none of these innocents have to die.
this is on hamas.
It’s this simple. If a single innocent child is between you and your military target, and you kill the child to get to the target, then you’re a villain. Are you as much of a villain as the person you killed? Perhaps not. But are you a villain? Yes.
You are correct, everyone is a villain at that point. The problem with that, as horrible this is, is it incentivizes the action. For the same reason countries don’t negotiate with terrorists. If you prove that committing terrorist acts, or taking hostages, or using children as human shields works, you positively reinforce those acts. Its fucked up beyond belief, and all alternatives need to be exhausted, but at some level someone takes the responsibility for where the lines are drawn for the least damage in the long run.
Is it actually preferable to just give money to anyone who hijacks a bus load of people, or a plane, or a bank, etc, so that no hostages are possibly injured when that happens? It might be, and could be argued for. Is such acts becoming more frequent or commonplace because it works an acceptable price weight against innocent human life? Again, it very well might be. It’s only money. I am glad I am not the one making those decisions, but we can’t pretend that the calculus doesn’t happen and/or doesn’t matter.
nah,it’s simpler, hamas shouldn’t be using children as shield like a coward and take what’s coming for them like the man they claimed they were.
villian i may be,coward i am not.
Yea, bad guys shouldn’t use civilians as human shields.
That doesn’t give someone else the right to shoot the civilians to kill the bad guys.
that’s true and hamas doesn’t give a shit is a child dies. they much prefer to kill the israelis and if the child dies along the way, it’s justified.
Without a doubt. Israel shouldn’t be killing innocent civilians just because the terrorists are hiding in an apartment building, you know?
and terrorists like hamas shouldn’t be hiding in civilian buildings if they are such holy warriors.
fuck these cowards using civilian as shields.
Yes, you’re right. No one is saying they should. Lol.
The point, is that Israel is the ‘good guys’ and they shouldn’t bomb innocent people just because they are being used by the bad guys.
Let me quickly condemn Hamas before I step in to tell you that I’m so sick of reading „Hamas uses human shields“. The IDF is quite literally doing the same. Do you condemn the IDF?
That being said, it seems like an absolute waste of energy to use human shields against Israel, because they do not give a shit about civilians. They even shot their own hostages who were naked, unarmed, writing SOS and speaking Hebrew.
According to UN officials this could amount once again to war crimes. Do you think it’s Hamas‘ fault that Israel is committing war crimes? That Israel is committing genocide to name the crime of crimes?
i condemn the idf for killing innocents and their own hostage. there isn’t any argument concerning the killing of innocents.
i do however hold hamas ultimately accountable for these atrocities if they hadn’t started that shit on Oct 7th.
idf is responsible and accountable for sure but the situation today is still ultimately a response to hama’s actions and they are ultimately responsible and accountable for the tragedies that’s happening.
They want innocent people to die, it’s how they get people on their side. They need it for propaganda.
Yes, Hamas is shitty and I’ve never seen a single person defend them.
Their actions do not ever justify the killing of innocent people and civilians. What’s so nasty about this war is the massive numbers of innocent deaths.
In this operation they saved FOUR people at the literal cost of hundreds of innocent men, women, and children. How can anyone defend this? It’s simply unconscionable.
This is on the IDF. No one is forcing them to attack so indiscriminately.
hamas basically is.
Talk about stating the obvious, , ,
They have been ready to give all the hostige back if Israel givs theres back and stops commuting genocide. But the declined over 10 times
lol,hamas condition for ceasefire basically is such that no sane person will ever agree to it.
besides,there isn’t even a need for all these had hamas not decide to commit mass murders on Oct 7th.
