Okay, go back to the 90s and see how Perot or Nader turned out. After their (relatively successful) runs, the US collapsed back into the two party system immediately.
I’m really not trying to argue with you, but rather convince you that as much as I would love a third-party ticket, it just won’t work, unless you want that third party to rule authoritatively without consent from the legislative or judicial branches. I’m pretty sure we agree on almost all points otherwise; the two party system needs to be broken, and it needs to be broken yesterday. But, as someone who voted for Stein, please believe that I’m arguing from a place of not wanting but needing change, and just electing a woke president isn’t change.
Yes, it’s much harder to go bottom-up, but I’m really not seeing any arguments still as to how or why a third party ticket would actually affect that change.
Yes, it’s much harder to go bottom-up, but I’m really not seeing any arguments still as to how or why a third party ticket would actually affect that change.
The problem is that we’ve reached a point where bottom up is no longer possible given the time frame we have to work in. With Democrats and Republicans in charge, we’ll get to fascism or environmental disaster before “just start at dogcatcher and fight both parties for a century or two” pays off. Pretending that if we just take tiny enough baby steps forever we’ll get any meaningful change for the better is insulting.
But these don’t have to be tiny baby steps, and starting at ‘dogcatcher’ is clearly not arguing in good faith. For instance, if the DSA abandoned their platform of being explicitly not a political party, there would already be a network of hundreds running for real important positions like mayors, councilmembers, district attorneys, etc. Would most of them lose these races? Probably. But you have to imagine the average American is not politically aware at all, and seeing a neighbor making real local change may be the only way to get ‘centrists’ onboard. Otherwise, you’re just constantly fighting the media and establishment, or ordering pogroms in order to maintain power and affect change.
Also, political parties historically have not taken centuries to take off, even in two-party systems like the US. We’ve got so much good data on how to actually do this, things like the Lib-Lab pact in the UK, that show us exactly how to bootstrap a party from irrelevance to dominance in just two or so election cycles. Is that too late to stem fascism or environmental collapse? Maybe, but I’m 100% sure that a third party couldn’t rise inorganically in that timeframe either.
The fault doesn’t lie in people wanting to do this in a sustainable way, but in relying on entrenched systems like the Democratic Party to make these moves, when it’s clear as day that they prefer maintaining the status quo over progressivism.
But these don’t have to be tiny baby steps, and starting at ‘dogcatcher’ is clearly not arguing in good faith.
It’s an exaggeration, but not much of one.
With both parties fighting them, it would take a miracle for even one to win.
Probably. But you have to imagine the average American is not politically aware at all, and seeing a neighbor making real local change may be the only way to get ‘centrists’ onboard.
Is that too late to stem fascism or environmental collapse?
Yes, and it’s why the “just build a whole assed political party from the ground up before even thinking about running for national office” is another way of saying “there is never going to be a situation in which a third party will be ok.” Your conditions cannot be met.
This is just not true, there are countless historical examples. Again, I think the most pertinent one to refute your ‘fighting against two parties’ point is the Lib-Lab pact. Obviously it can’t work the exact same way in the US, but there are methods that countries have used to escape entrenched parties, and we just haven’t tried it in the modern US. Also, why would this point not apply to the Electoral College? Wouldn’t the eco-friendly party draw more support from Dem voters, all but guaranteeing a Republican victory?
I think it’s worth trying something that has some evidence behind it before going straight to eco-fascism, no?
Well, idk, you never responded when I was asking what this third party president would do about the legislative and judiciary being very anti-progressive, and just seemed to assume that third party president means no more oil/fascists tomorrow. If you’re willing to discuss the mechanisms behind that, then sure, but what you’re describing without going into any further detail seems to be just eco-fascism.
Well, idk, you never responded when I was asking what this third party president would do about the legislative and judiciary being very anti-progressive, and just seemed to assume that third party president means no more oil/fascists tomorrow.
Your criteria are impossible to meet before the two party hegemony gives us regular fascism. But that’s the point in coming up with endless excuses for why it’s never the time for anything other than voting for whichever pro-genocide geriatric is second worst.
Again, I gave examples of why it’s not impossible and has been accomplished before, but you keep saying it’s impossible because of the time scale. Which, maybe, but the alternative is eco-fascism, unless you provide me with some other means of achieving this rapid change.
I’m also not saying that you can’t or shouldn’t vote your conscience, like I said, I’ve done so as well. Third parties can and should be on the ballot, but actually getting elected or accomplishing what you want just isn’t possible without more than the executive with these views in power.
Believe me, I’m beyond frustrated as well, but even back when I was campaigning for Bernie before Trump had his first nomination, I realized that if he won, change wouldn’t happen nearly as fast as it probably needs to.
Okay, go back to the 90s and see how Perot or Nader turned out. After their (relatively successful) runs, the US collapsed back into the two party system immediately.
I’m really not trying to argue with you, but rather convince you that as much as I would love a third-party ticket, it just won’t work, unless you want that third party to rule authoritatively without consent from the legislative or judicial branches. I’m pretty sure we agree on almost all points otherwise; the two party system needs to be broken, and it needs to be broken yesterday. But, as someone who voted for Stein, please believe that I’m arguing from a place of not wanting but needing change, and just electing a woke president isn’t change.
Yes, it’s much harder to go bottom-up, but I’m really not seeing any arguments still as to how or why a third party ticket would actually affect that change.
The problem is that we’ve reached a point where bottom up is no longer possible given the time frame we have to work in. With Democrats and Republicans in charge, we’ll get to fascism or environmental disaster before “just start at dogcatcher and fight both parties for a century or two” pays off. Pretending that if we just take tiny enough baby steps forever we’ll get any meaningful change for the better is insulting.
But these don’t have to be tiny baby steps, and starting at ‘dogcatcher’ is clearly not arguing in good faith. For instance, if the DSA abandoned their platform of being explicitly not a political party, there would already be a network of hundreds running for real important positions like mayors, councilmembers, district attorneys, etc. Would most of them lose these races? Probably. But you have to imagine the average American is not politically aware at all, and seeing a neighbor making real local change may be the only way to get ‘centrists’ onboard. Otherwise, you’re just constantly fighting the media and establishment, or ordering pogroms in order to maintain power and affect change.
Also, political parties historically have not taken centuries to take off, even in two-party systems like the US. We’ve got so much good data on how to actually do this, things like the Lib-Lab pact in the UK, that show us exactly how to bootstrap a party from irrelevance to dominance in just two or so election cycles. Is that too late to stem fascism or environmental collapse? Maybe, but I’m 100% sure that a third party couldn’t rise inorganically in that timeframe either.
The fault doesn’t lie in people wanting to do this in a sustainable way, but in relying on entrenched systems like the Democratic Party to make these moves, when it’s clear as day that they prefer maintaining the status quo over progressivism.
It’s an exaggeration, but not much of one.
With both parties fighting them, it would take a miracle for even one to win.
Yes, and it’s why the “just build a whole assed political party from the ground up before even thinking about running for national office” is another way of saying “there is never going to be a situation in which a third party will be ok.” Your conditions cannot be met.
This is just not true, there are countless historical examples. Again, I think the most pertinent one to refute your ‘fighting against two parties’ point is the Lib-Lab pact. Obviously it can’t work the exact same way in the US, but there are methods that countries have used to escape entrenched parties, and we just haven’t tried it in the modern US. Also, why would this point not apply to the Electoral College? Wouldn’t the eco-friendly party draw more support from Dem voters, all but guaranteeing a Republican victory?
I think it’s worth trying something that has some evidence behind it before going straight to eco-fascism, no?
And you said that my dogcatcher line was bad faith.
Well, idk, you never responded when I was asking what this third party president would do about the legislative and judiciary being very anti-progressive, and just seemed to assume that third party president means no more oil/fascists tomorrow. If you’re willing to discuss the mechanisms behind that, then sure, but what you’re describing without going into any further detail seems to be just eco-fascism.
Your criteria are impossible to meet before the two party hegemony gives us regular fascism. But that’s the point in coming up with endless excuses for why it’s never the time for anything other than voting for whichever pro-genocide geriatric is second worst.
Again, I gave examples of why it’s not impossible and has been accomplished before, but you keep saying it’s impossible because of the time scale. Which, maybe, but the alternative is eco-fascism, unless you provide me with some other means of achieving this rapid change.
I’m also not saying that you can’t or shouldn’t vote your conscience, like I said, I’ve done so as well. Third parties can and should be on the ballot, but actually getting elected or accomplishing what you want just isn’t possible without more than the executive with these views in power.
Believe me, I’m beyond frustrated as well, but even back when I was campaigning for Bernie before Trump had his first nomination, I realized that if he won, change wouldn’t happen nearly as fast as it probably needs to.