Ok, I mean you’re entitled to your opinion. I’m just saying that what happens during a war is only clear after it’s ended. And certainly isn’t clear to keyboard warriors sitting on their couch in the states or Europe. There’s a very famous photo of German POWs being shown footage of a death camp prior to their release. The expressions on their faces show very clearly that they had no idea what was happening.
Similarly after this conflict is over, it is very possible that some extremely damming evidence will come to light. But until the war is over, you have to assume that most of what you see on both sides will be propaganda or taken out of context to promote a political ideology. And it’s a foolish comparison to make without more evidence than an out of context picture of an asshole prison guard.
Everyone else seems to see enough clearly damning evidence. But no problem, we can wait until the genocide is over and all Gazans are dead. 👍 That way you don’t have to believe us “keyboard warriors” sharing journalistic investigations and video footage of the mayhem.
Believe me I think Israel should pull out of Gaza and the settlers should leave the west bank. And I also believe that Palestine should be granted full independence according to 1967 borders. And I genuinely think that that would go a long way to establishing a climate of mutual hostility instead of straight up violence (I’m not naive enough to think that Israelis and Palestinians will ever be friends). Of course I shouldn’t be consulted, because I don’t live there and consulting Europeans about national borders in the middle east doesn’t seem to work. But I’m still not going to judge either side as being as bad as the Nazis, because I don’t have enough information to make that call.
I am 100% against the IDF entering Gaza and executing civilians or Israelis settling in the west bank. I am also 100% against kidnapping civilians and digging up water pipes to make unguided rockets to be fired indiscriminately into residential areas.
I’m Palestinian Jordanian. My father is from Yaffa (Tel Aviv) and my mother is from a town nearby that was destroyed and turned into a settlement after the entire population was driven out after trying to defend themselves in 1947-48. My grandparents were in the Nakba as children and fled to Jordan, eventually receiving citizenship. My father grew up in a refugee camp in Jordan and my mother grew up in poverty as a result of the Nakba.
Usually when people ask I just say I’m Jordanian to avoid the clutter of explaining all of this but I thought you might like a full answer.
It was difficult whenever I crossed paths with racist Jordanians. Most Jordanians I’ve met were perfectly fine people, but most of those who were racist towards me were Jordanian. One problem that drives the division is demographic in nature: many Palestinians settled in Amman, the capital, and many Jordanians owned land far from the capital and lived in rural areas, hence had worse services and the government cared less about them, coupled with bad corruption within governmental circles in cities other than the capital. This always drives a disdain for the “immigrant” population, which meant Palestinians up until the Iraq war and then the war in Syria. Most problems would be related to employment, Jordanians (and often Palestinians) being hired out of favoritism and nepotism has caused pain to many people, but has also allowed some people to navigate a grossly unfair and uncaring system.
I remember at my elementary/middle school, we were not allowed to wear the Palestinian Kuffiyeh (my grandfather always told me to never wear it… only he wore one as an older man but knew that it comes with getting shit from some random people on the street so he never wanted his granddaughters to experience that). There’s also another issue that has plagued my aunt and her husband: she’s married to a Palestinian from Gaza, and could never get citizenship, so her children had a more difficult life in terms of getting education and opportunities.
Among my generation (born in the 90’s), there’s certainly less racism, and there are many Jordanians who call Palestinians their brothers and care about the Palestinian cause. But I still grew up hearing slurs like “baljikeyye / Belgian” to refer to Palestinian refugees who had tents made in Belgium. Often when I get stopped by police and my Jordanian bff is with us in the car, things go fine. Otherwise, I’m usually fucked unless the police officer is a decent person. Things move easier if you’re Jordanian with a Jordanian name, and some Jordanians/Palestinians don’t like to marry someone not from their own country/identity but that stuff has started to fade with the internet and rise in civil rights and freedoms.
I guess my experience is mixed, but I feel that’s normal when you look at a nuanced and highly porous society like that in Jordan.
Ok so you’re way closer to the conflict than you let on. Do you currently live in the region? I’m sure you have family there if not, but it would be to speak with someone who has more real world insight than I do. As I’ve said in previous comments, I’m extremely skeptical of anything that comes from the internet. YouTubers tend to have extreme views and papers only care about the click counter. Needless to say there aren’t many Palestinians or Israelis in Arctic Scandinavia.
Ok so you’re way closer to the conflict than you let on
Not really going to wear a badge that says “GRANDCHILD OF THE NAKBA” or something. And I’m not “letting on” anything. Makes it sound like I’m trying to “deceive” people which is very weird. Maybe it’s just the way you phrase things?
Needless to say there aren’t many Palestinians or Israelis in Arctic Scandinavia.
Arctic Scandinavia? You mean like, Kiruna or way up north or something? I live in Sweden btw, yeah not many Palestinians here, I agree.
I’m sure you have family there if not, but it would be to speak with someone who has more real world insight than I do.
We have some family in the West Bank that my family had not been able to visit for years because of the humiliation at the checkpoints. My mom especially hated being stripped naked and searched every visit. I don’t know much about them, it’s more of my mom’s department to keep track of distant relatives. A friend of mine is currently also stuck in Gaza, a Swedish citizen whom Sweden ignored and is not helping out… Last known location is Al Nasser Hospital with shrapnel in his legs so you can imagine the horrors his wife and daughters are going through.
As I’ve said in previous comments, I’m extremely skeptical of anything that comes from the internet.
I’m sure you have family there if not, but it would be to speak with someone who has more real world insight than I do.
I understand and respect that… but much of this evidence is coming from journalists who are reporting similar (if not the same) recurring stories. Worse of all, a lot of this evidence is posted by the IDF themselves or by Israeli channels due to their disturbing internal culture.
I can only offer insight into life as a Palestinian refugee and have never been able to visit my home towns in Palestine and would never be allowed to enter (because my last name is Palestinian, because I donate to the BDS, and because I’m extremely vocal about Israeli pinkwashing). However, if you want some insights from ex IDF soldiers themselves, I would recommend watching some videos from the Breaking The Silence foundation (https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/). An Israeli foundation documenting the horrors young people end up doing when they join the IDF.
This was a valuable resource for me because just like you, I’m very wary of what is posted on the internet and try to always find more evidence to support it.
Nei kompis. Litt lengre nordover. Jeg skal se på linken om en liten stund og skrive en respons i ettermiddagen. (Er på jobb nå). Hva synes du om Sverige? Jeg har hørt at det er meget vanskelig for utlendinger å bli ordentlig integrert i samfunnet pga rasisme og sånn. Samboeren min er fra usa og ble nektet en brosjyre distribusjon job i Stockholm pga hun var ikke svensk. Og hun er det som kalles for “den rigtige type utlending”
Dude. We have actual evidence, not circumstantial, not biased witnesses; of Israel inducing a famine, shooting unarmed civilians trying to cross their lines, killing reporters, and using doctors as human shields. (Who they then killed anyway).
This isn’t a wait until it’s over thing. This is an act now thing. For reference these guys already have more credible war crime allegations in 4 months than the US had in 20 years over a much larger area. It’s not rocket science.
Ok, I mean you’re entitled to your opinion. I’m just saying that what happens during a war is only clear after it’s ended. And certainly isn’t clear to keyboard warriors sitting on their couch in the states or Europe. There’s a very famous photo of German POWs being shown footage of a death camp prior to their release. The expressions on their faces show very clearly that they had no idea what was happening.
Similarly after this conflict is over, it is very possible that some extremely damming evidence will come to light. But until the war is over, you have to assume that most of what you see on both sides will be propaganda or taken out of context to promote a political ideology. And it’s a foolish comparison to make without more evidence than an out of context picture of an asshole prison guard.
Everyone else seems to see enough clearly damning evidence. But no problem, we can wait until the genocide is over and all Gazans are dead. 👍 That way you don’t have to believe us “keyboard warriors” sharing journalistic investigations and video footage of the mayhem.
Believe me I think Israel should pull out of Gaza and the settlers should leave the west bank. And I also believe that Palestine should be granted full independence according to 1967 borders. And I genuinely think that that would go a long way to establishing a climate of mutual hostility instead of straight up violence (I’m not naive enough to think that Israelis and Palestinians will ever be friends). Of course I shouldn’t be consulted, because I don’t live there and consulting Europeans about national borders in the middle east doesn’t seem to work. But I’m still not going to judge either side as being as bad as the Nazis, because I don’t have enough information to make that call.
I am 100% against the IDF entering Gaza and executing civilians or Israelis settling in the west bank. I am also 100% against kidnapping civilians and digging up water pipes to make unguided rockets to be fired indiscriminately into residential areas.
Fair enough, even though that’s not at all how you came off. But I understand.
I, on the other hand, have enough evidence. 75 years of evidence.
If you don’t mind me asking, where are you from ? (i notice that your user name is in Arabic)
I’m Palestinian Jordanian. My father is from Yaffa (Tel Aviv) and my mother is from a town nearby that was destroyed and turned into a settlement after the entire population was driven out after trying to defend themselves in 1947-48. My grandparents were in the Nakba as children and fled to Jordan, eventually receiving citizenship. My father grew up in a refugee camp in Jordan and my mother grew up in poverty as a result of the Nakba.
Usually when people ask I just say I’m Jordanian to avoid the clutter of explaining all of this but I thought you might like a full answer.
Genuine question - what’s your opinion of the Jordanian treatment of Palestinians?
It was difficult whenever I crossed paths with racist Jordanians. Most Jordanians I’ve met were perfectly fine people, but most of those who were racist towards me were Jordanian. One problem that drives the division is demographic in nature: many Palestinians settled in Amman, the capital, and many Jordanians owned land far from the capital and lived in rural areas, hence had worse services and the government cared less about them, coupled with bad corruption within governmental circles in cities other than the capital. This always drives a disdain for the “immigrant” population, which meant Palestinians up until the Iraq war and then the war in Syria. Most problems would be related to employment, Jordanians (and often Palestinians) being hired out of favoritism and nepotism has caused pain to many people, but has also allowed some people to navigate a grossly unfair and uncaring system.
I remember at my elementary/middle school, we were not allowed to wear the Palestinian Kuffiyeh (my grandfather always told me to never wear it… only he wore one as an older man but knew that it comes with getting shit from some random people on the street so he never wanted his granddaughters to experience that). There’s also another issue that has plagued my aunt and her husband: she’s married to a Palestinian from Gaza, and could never get citizenship, so her children had a more difficult life in terms of getting education and opportunities.
Among my generation (born in the 90’s), there’s certainly less racism, and there are many Jordanians who call Palestinians their brothers and care about the Palestinian cause. But I still grew up hearing slurs like “baljikeyye / Belgian” to refer to Palestinian refugees who had tents made in Belgium. Often when I get stopped by police and my Jordanian bff is with us in the car, things go fine. Otherwise, I’m usually fucked unless the police officer is a decent person. Things move easier if you’re Jordanian with a Jordanian name, and some Jordanians/Palestinians don’t like to marry someone not from their own country/identity but that stuff has started to fade with the internet and rise in civil rights and freedoms.
I guess my experience is mixed, but I feel that’s normal when you look at a nuanced and highly porous society like that in Jordan.
Ok so you’re way closer to the conflict than you let on. Do you currently live in the region? I’m sure you have family there if not, but it would be to speak with someone who has more real world insight than I do. As I’ve said in previous comments, I’m extremely skeptical of anything that comes from the internet. YouTubers tend to have extreme views and papers only care about the click counter. Needless to say there aren’t many Palestinians or Israelis in Arctic Scandinavia.
Not really going to wear a badge that says “GRANDCHILD OF THE NAKBA” or something. And I’m not “letting on” anything. Makes it sound like I’m trying to “deceive” people which is very weird. Maybe it’s just the way you phrase things?
Arctic Scandinavia? You mean like, Kiruna or way up north or something? I live in Sweden btw, yeah not many Palestinians here, I agree.
We have some family in the West Bank that my family had not been able to visit for years because of the humiliation at the checkpoints. My mom especially hated being stripped naked and searched every visit. I don’t know much about them, it’s more of my mom’s department to keep track of distant relatives. A friend of mine is currently also stuck in Gaza, a Swedish citizen whom Sweden ignored and is not helping out… Last known location is Al Nasser Hospital with shrapnel in his legs so you can imagine the horrors his wife and daughters are going through.
I understand and respect that… but much of this evidence is coming from journalists who are reporting similar (if not the same) recurring stories. Worse of all, a lot of this evidence is posted by the IDF themselves or by Israeli channels due to their disturbing internal culture.
I can only offer insight into life as a Palestinian refugee and have never been able to visit my home towns in Palestine and would never be allowed to enter (because my last name is Palestinian, because I donate to the BDS, and because I’m extremely vocal about Israeli pinkwashing). However, if you want some insights from ex IDF soldiers themselves, I would recommend watching some videos from the Breaking The Silence foundation (https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/). An Israeli foundation documenting the horrors young people end up doing when they join the IDF.
This was a valuable resource for me because just like you, I’m very wary of what is posted on the internet and try to always find more evidence to support it.
Nei kompis. Litt lengre nordover. Jeg skal se på linken om en liten stund og skrive en respons i ettermiddagen. (Er på jobb nå). Hva synes du om Sverige? Jeg har hørt at det er meget vanskelig for utlendinger å bli ordentlig integrert i samfunnet pga rasisme og sånn. Samboeren min er fra usa og ble nektet en brosjyre distribusjon job i Stockholm pga hun var ikke svensk. Og hun er det som kalles for “den rigtige type utlending”
Dude. We have actual evidence, not circumstantial, not biased witnesses; of Israel inducing a famine, shooting unarmed civilians trying to cross their lines, killing reporters, and using doctors as human shields. (Who they then killed anyway).
This isn’t a wait until it’s over thing. This is an act now thing. For reference these guys already have more credible war crime allegations in 4 months than the US had in 20 years over a much larger area. It’s not rocket science.