Poisoning the air or water is against the non-aggression principle of libertarianism. People who are okay with harming others are not libertarians, they are just LARPing Republicans.
Public roads is a difference of opinion. If there were private toll roads everywhere with a wireless chip for payment (to fund upkeep of the road) I would not be against that. The government has toll roads as well so I had to get the wireless chip anyway in California since I don’t have exact change on me every time I drive on a bridge. If his higher cost of roads went to keeping them in better order and discouraged people from driving, that would be actually a benefit.
You have every right to your opinion, and you’re welcome to ignore me, but I really don’t understand where you’re coming from on that. I can think of so many issues with having a privatized road system. Just off the top of my head,
How do these companies get the land? Every libertarian I’ve asked this of has gone on about how the railroads didn’t need government help to get their land, which is provably false (sources 1,2,3). So given that the land is taken by the government then given or sold to the railroads, (or in our case roads) the government is still in the position of forcing the trade and choosing which companies get it.
Then we get to the topic of necessary monopoly. If we don’t have a monopoly in charge of a large chunk of land, turning right will cost you an extra $10 as opposed to going straight. For that matter going straight more than 5 miles may cost you an extra $10. (I’m hoping this is uncontroversial enough to not require a source). This is the reason that we have utilities (of which private roads are - at least in my state- already one (source 4)), but this means that the government gets to say how much they’re allowed to charge (source 5). If they don’t place this regulation, people that live at one end of a private road and work at the other will be required to pay extortionist prices, because there can only be so many roads to get from point a to b. If we do keep those requirements then this is no longer a benefit of using private roads.
Then there’s the price difference for the consumer. This one requires some pre-amble.
New Jersey has a population of 9.288 million
Michigan has a population of 10.077 million
(both source 6)
Michigan roads are funded primarily through a (shockingly high) gas tax of 19c/gal (7). (It’s largely so high because the wild temperature varrations damage the roads.) The average American uses 489 gal/year (8) for a total average tax of $92.91/year.
The average new Jersey resident pays very little in gas tax, but they do pay for tolls. I can’t find an average, but last year the state got ~2 billion (9) in tolls divided by the total number of residents from earlier we can roughly estimate they paid 215.33/year. (This fails to take into account visitors, but in the reverse direction it also fails to account for children and those not driving)
This is in a toll system that, unlike a private one, does not need to turn a profit. To your point on road maintained being better for toll roads - according to Consumer Affairs NJ is raked 27th in the country for it, while Michigan is 20th (10). US news has NJ at 40, and Michigan at 30 (11).
In the end of the day, it seems to me that people will pay more to drive, and the government will still have such a high level of control of the road system that any benefit that could be found in privatization is lost.
These companies would have to buy the land from the government or from people who own the land, like everyone else. If you say that the government gets it with imminent domain and that sucks, well, that’s another topic, isn’t it? Since that’s what it currently does. We’re only discussing selling the roads to private owners that the government currently owns.
If we don’t have a monopoly in charge of a large chunk of land, turning right will cost you an extra $10 as opposed to going straight. For that matter going straight more than 5 miles may cost you an extra $10.
This is already the case, if you miss your turn you might be on your way to a toll bridge since you missed the last exit and there’s no way to turn around. Of course, you would be using an app that can either optimize for driving time OR cost. This is also the case now as you can go around a toll bridge, but you’d have to go all the way around the bay to save a few dollars. This isn’t something new or materially different
If they don’t place this regulation, people that live at one end of a private road and work at the other will be required to pay extortionist prices
you can stop using a road that’s too expensive and take a bus from a road that is cheaper, the land owner will be forced to decrease the prices until people stop avoiding it
In the end of the day, it seems to me that people will pay more to drive, and the government will still have such a high level of control of the road system that any benefit that could be found in privatization is lost.
This isn’t necessarily a bad thing if it causes cheaper public transport options to become available.
Overall, I don’t know if it would be better, I’m just saying it’s not as ridiculous as people might think.
*I realized this is a reginal phrase so I figured I should clear it up at the beginning. When I say freeway or interstate I always am referring to roads that get federal funding and meet the US interstate code.
If you say that the government gets it with imminent domain and that sucks, well, that’s another topic, isn’t it? Since that’s what it currently does.
Yeah, my only point here is that this is regularly brought up as a benefit (although I recognize that you personally never did), and I don’t think that it does have that benefit to any degree.
For each of your next two points I think we may be talking about different things. My understanding of your argument was that all roads can (and maybe should be) privatized. With “all” being operative. In that case the road my house is on is not optional for me to not pay for. If you’re only suggesting that highways and freeways should be privatized I don’t think that is as ridiculous a notion.
I do think even in that case it’s worth noting that this would end up being a tax on people who live in rural areas but work in cities. Which is a roundabout way of saying mostly less wealthy people. I also understand that you’re in California while I’m in North Carolina so for you it probably means people that live in the suburbs, while for me it means people living in towns that the industry left 30 years ago and have to commute.
I also think it's worth pointing out that the freeway system is a military operation with economic benefits, not vice versa. Part of the US interstate code requires that a tank be able to drive on every part with many locations (I don't recall how often they're required to be) that a fighter jet can land and take off in case we ever have a war on the continent. (This is just for freeways, not highways.) * (see edit)
This isn’t necessarily a bad thing if it causes cheaper public transport options to become available.
If it does that I agree, but in most of the country that system doesn’t exist. Within cities we’ve spent the last 50 years eliminating every cost effective public transit option. And for rural areas it’s never existed. I would be far less opposed to it if we created those options, but I have seen the government take away our options with the promise to give us new ones that never come far too many times to trust it.
Once park and rides in rural areas, free or cheap bus systems in cities, good sidewalk networks, bike lanes, and bike paths (ideally also trollies if we can somehow swing it) exist across the country, I’ll change my tune. But not until they exist, and definitely not on the promise that “we’ll make them next”.
I guess I don’t have strong opposition to private highways, but roads with residences I do. I still don’t see the benefit of them, but I don’t think the downsides are that dramatic.
Getting sources was really time consuming and I’m replying on my phone so I’m not gonna bother this time, but if I’ve used any facts that you doubt the validity of let me know and I’ll find sources.
Also, just wanna say it’s nice getting into a respectful debate online. It’s been a while. Thanks!
EDIT:
I can’t figure out how to strike through text on kbin, so I’m using code text to emphasize the paragraph instead. I apologize, this is commonly repeated misinformation. The US interstate system was built with military and economic ideas concurrently not with the military at the forefront and economics benefits secondary. There is no requirement that tanks be able to drive on the interstate (apparency paved roads are actually bad for the treads), on top of that there is not a requirement that airplanes be able to land and/or take off from it. Apparently the idea was proposed and rejected when the interstate act of 1956 was in front of congress. The closest this paragraph comes to the truth is that Eisenhour did propose the interstate system to congress after a test of military readiness that came to the conclusion that military vehicles could not cross the country in a timely manner with the currently existing infrastructure in the 1950s. Given this the paragraph is barely relevant to the debate.
Poisoning the air or water is against the non-aggression principle of libertarianism. People who are okay with harming others are not libertarians, they are just LARPing Republicans.
Public roads is a difference of opinion. If there were private toll roads everywhere with a wireless chip for payment (to fund upkeep of the road) I would not be against that. The government has toll roads as well so I had to get the wireless chip anyway in California since I don’t have exact change on me every time I drive on a bridge. If his higher cost of roads went to keeping them in better order and discouraged people from driving, that would be actually a benefit.
You have every right to your opinion, and you’re welcome to ignore me, but I really don’t understand where you’re coming from on that. I can think of so many issues with having a privatized road system. Just off the top of my head,
How do these companies get the land? Every libertarian I’ve asked this of has gone on about how the railroads didn’t need government help to get their land, which is provably false (sources 1,2,3). So given that the land is taken by the government then given or sold to the railroads, (or in our case roads) the government is still in the position of forcing the trade and choosing which companies get it.
Then we get to the topic of necessary monopoly. If we don’t have a monopoly in charge of a large chunk of land, turning right will cost you an extra $10 as opposed to going straight. For that matter going straight more than 5 miles may cost you an extra $10. (I’m hoping this is uncontroversial enough to not require a source). This is the reason that we have utilities (of which private roads are - at least in my state- already one (source 4)), but this means that the government gets to say how much they’re allowed to charge (source 5). If they don’t place this regulation, people that live at one end of a private road and work at the other will be required to pay extortionist prices, because there can only be so many roads to get from point a to b. If we do keep those requirements then this is no longer a benefit of using private roads.
Then there’s the price difference for the consumer. This one requires some pre-amble.
New Jersey has a population of 9.288 million
Michigan has a population of 10.077 million
(both source 6)
Michigan roads are funded primarily through a (shockingly high) gas tax of 19c/gal (7). (It’s largely so high because the wild temperature varrations damage the roads.) The average American uses 489 gal/year (8) for a total average tax of $92.91/year.
The average new Jersey resident pays very little in gas tax, but they do pay for tolls. I can’t find an average, but last year the state got ~2 billion (9) in tolls divided by the total number of residents from earlier we can roughly estimate they paid 215.33/year. (This fails to take into account visitors, but in the reverse direction it also fails to account for children and those not driving)
This is in a toll system that, unlike a private one, does not need to turn a profit. To your point on road maintained being better for toll roads - according to Consumer Affairs NJ is raked 27th in the country for it, while Michigan is 20th (10). US news has NJ at 40, and Michigan at 30 (11).
In the end of the day, it seems to me that people will pay more to drive, and the government will still have such a high level of control of the road system that any benefit that could be found in privatization is lost.
Sources:
These companies would have to buy the land from the government or from people who own the land, like everyone else. If you say that the government gets it with imminent domain and that sucks, well, that’s another topic, isn’t it? Since that’s what it currently does. We’re only discussing selling the roads to private owners that the government currently owns.
This is already the case, if you miss your turn you might be on your way to a toll bridge since you missed the last exit and there’s no way to turn around. Of course, you would be using an app that can either optimize for driving time OR cost. This is also the case now as you can go around a toll bridge, but you’d have to go all the way around the bay to save a few dollars. This isn’t something new or materially different
you can stop using a road that’s too expensive and take a bus from a road that is cheaper, the land owner will be forced to decrease the prices until people stop avoiding it
This isn’t necessarily a bad thing if it causes cheaper public transport options to become available.
Overall, I don’t know if it would be better, I’m just saying it’s not as ridiculous as people might think.
*I realized this is a reginal phrase so I figured I should clear it up at the beginning. When I say freeway or interstate I always am referring to roads that get federal funding and meet the US interstate code.
Yeah, my only point here is that this is regularly brought up as a benefit (although I recognize that you personally never did), and I don’t think that it does have that benefit to any degree.
For each of your next two points I think we may be talking about different things. My understanding of your argument was that all roads can (and maybe should be) privatized. With “all” being operative. In that case the road my house is on is not optional for me to not pay for. If you’re only suggesting that highways and freeways should be privatized I don’t think that is as ridiculous a notion.
I do think even in that case it’s worth noting that this would end up being a tax on people who live in rural areas but work in cities. Which is a roundabout way of saying mostly less wealthy people. I also understand that you’re in California while I’m in North Carolina so for you it probably means people that live in the suburbs, while for me it means people living in towns that the industry left 30 years ago and have to commute.
I also think it's worth pointing out that the freeway system is a military operation with economic benefits, not vice versa. Part of the US interstate code requires that a tank be able to drive on every part with many locations (I don't recall how often they're required to be) that a fighter jet can land and take off in case we ever have a war on the continent. (This is just for freeways, not highways.)* (see edit)If it does that I agree, but in most of the country that system doesn’t exist. Within cities we’ve spent the last 50 years eliminating every cost effective public transit option. And for rural areas it’s never existed. I would be far less opposed to it if we created those options, but I have seen the government take away our options with the promise to give us new ones that never come far too many times to trust it.
Once park and rides in rural areas, free or cheap bus systems in cities, good sidewalk networks, bike lanes, and bike paths (ideally also trollies if we can somehow swing it) exist across the country, I’ll change my tune. But not until they exist, and definitely not on the promise that “we’ll make them next”.
I guess I don’t have strong opposition to private highways, but roads with residences I do. I still don’t see the benefit of them, but I don’t think the downsides are that dramatic.
Getting sources was really time consuming and I’m replying on my phone so I’m not gonna bother this time, but if I’ve used any facts that you doubt the validity of let me know and I’ll find sources.
Also, just wanna say it’s nice getting into a respectful debate online. It’s been a while. Thanks!
EDIT:
I can’t figure out how to strike through text on kbin, so I’m using code text to emphasize the paragraph instead. I apologize, this is commonly repeated misinformation. The US interstate system was built with military and economic ideas concurrently not with the military at the forefront and economics benefits secondary. There is no requirement that tanks be able to drive on the interstate (apparency paved roads are actually bad for the treads), on top of that there is not a requirement that airplanes be able to land and/or take off from it. Apparently the idea was proposed and rejected when the interstate act of 1956 was in front of congress. The closest this paragraph comes to the truth is that Eisenhour did propose the interstate system to congress after a test of military readiness that came to the conclusion that military vehicles could not cross the country in a timely manner with the currently existing infrastructure in the 1950s. Given this the paragraph is barely relevant to the debate.