Lets assume we develop the capacity to create virtual worlds that are near indistinguishable from the real world. We hook you up into a machine and you now find yourself in what effectively is a paraller reality where you get to be the king of your own universe (if you so desire). Nothing is off limits - everything you’ve ever dreamt of is possible. You can be the only person there, you can populate it with unconscious AI that appears consciouss or you can have other people visit your world and you can visit theirs aswell as spend time in “public worlds” with millions of other real people.
Would you try it and do you think you’d prefer it over real world? Do you see it as a negative from individual perspective if significant part of the population basically spend their entire lives there?
Fully would. As long as there is no massive downside IRL.
If I could have any experience I wanted and see all the things in the universe without like, living half my life span or my descendants being farmed for fertilizer, then for sure.
The one downside is there would be minimal knowledge gain. Unless that’s also part of the virtual world.
There would be a huge downside in the real world.
The real world would seem dull, boring and depressing. As you cannot have that rich experience as in that virtual world.
A bit like drugs. It would create a dependence which would increase indefinitely until it would be extremely hard to live anything in the real world.
It’s not obvious to me that this would be a downside. Real world already is dull and depressing to many people. If they can be happy in the virtual world then that seems like an improvement to the status quo
This proposition feels like drugs without the physical side effects. If I’m [Edit: not] happy with the world I live in, I should try to make it better. Diving into a world without racism, climate change, pollution, or people with radically opposing views while we solve none of these problems in the real world isn’t healthy, I think.
you’re assuming though that the virtual worlds wouldn’t help to solve (or at least make irrelevant) those things
virtual worlds would likely be significantly more efficient than reality: if you don’t need to make physical products because you only need software and 3d models, manufacturing for most things just evaporates… less extracting resources from the earth, less energy spent refining resources and assembling parts, etc… no need for lighting, entertainment and social venues, office space… people would need far smaller houses so when they do need to travel, it’s probably going to be somewhere much closer to them - and for that matter, why travel?
perhaps lots of our worlds problems fall away when people can have whatever they like - when we aren’t competing with each other, and exist in a (virtual) world of plenty, perhaps some of societies more intractable problems will just cease to be problems. i’m not saying that would happen, and i don’t have any citations, but i’d say it’s certainly possible
what’s so special about the real world? if your experiences are fundamentally the same thing, why does it matter if it’s a real or a virtual experience? certainly there are things we can’t do virtually - scientific advancement and generally discovery likely requires some interaction with the real world, but even than could be done via interfaces to the outside world rather than specifically existing all the time in the real world
This reminds me of the conversation at the end of Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World, and I think the arguments for and against are effectively the same.
Come to think of it Huxley would have had a lot to say about VR if it’d been around in his day.
you’re assuming though that the virtual worlds wouldn’t help to solve (or at least make irrelevant) those things
Correct, I didn’t go as far as OP with the proposition of “virtual worlds that are near indistinguishable from the real world”. With that assumption your arguments invalidate my concerns.
Diving into a world without racism, climate change, pollution, or people with radically opposing views while we solve none of these problems in the real world isn’t healthy, I think.
And that’s assuming that nobody will create VR world’s where the oppressed groups are tortured or target for hunting practice.
To expand on this, one thing I haven’t seen in the comments yet, is how pivotal and amazing this would be for the handicapped and disabled community. I myself have a broken body and being able to do things in VR that I can’t in the physical world would be incredible.
I mean, seeing as this is not yet a reality… Have you looked into lucid dreaming?
Actually I have, but as soon as I realize I’m dreaming, I instantly wake up. So annoying!
This makes me wonder, how often do people’s disabilities manifest in their dreams? Presumably the rates would be different for those born with their disability and those who got it through illness or injury later in life.
For me, I became ill later in life. It’s been over ten years now of me living with my disability. In my dreams, sometimes I’m normal, and sometimes I’m not. It’s weird, seems like for me personally, it’s 50/50.
Assumptions:
- Stasis: When i spend months inside VR, my meat prison does not degrade faster than it would have leading my current livestyle. So at least something like the Matrix. Mind Upload would be perfect.
- Variety: The VR is large enough i will not get bored for at least 50 years.
- Control: The VR device is owned and operated by me, without requiring connection to some corporation. My VR life is owned by me. So no Corporate Dystopia. I can end the VR any time i want.
- Immersion: I can choose my avatar, the graphics is good and i can set the amount of pain i want to experience.
- Affordable: I can financially afford to stay in VR for at least 50 years.
Positives:
- Exciting: Every day can be an adventure. The best food can be copy-pasted. Have a house in the woods without having to sacrifice amenities. See the world without pollution. Dive trough oceans without having to catch your breath.
- Much less suffering: No more exercise (unlike my meat prison my avatar does not need exercise). No unwanted pain: Set pain to off if you don’t want to feel exthaustion, stubbing your toes,… No more disease, No worrying about wrecking your body.
- No more physics: Meals will remain fresh and warm even after weeks of hiking/climbing in the snow. Teleportation will be available.
Negatives:
- ?
If such VR is ever achieved, almoset everyone will live in it, and those living in it will look back and ask themselves how humans were ever happy to live like we do today.
I agree. Possible explanation to Fermi’s paradox (where are all the aliens?) is that they’re enjoying their lives in virtual worlds
Negatives: real world stagnation.
But maybe that’s a positive actually.
I can see the line of reasoning and honestly I would probably be an early adopter.
There is no invention (that i can imagine) i would look forward to if Mind Upload VR was real.
That would mean stagnation, but progress is only good if it reduces suffering. And i just can not see how making faster computers and learning physics can reduce suffering if there is Mind Upload VR, where all pain is optional.As long as the VR is more like a Matrix where the body still ages and dies, of course i would want research to continue so death does not rip me from my awesome virtual life before i have played it trough. Maybe even multiple times.
I agree that progress will most likely slow down once Matrix VR is real because why waste your precious years lerning physics and biology when there is affordable VR?
Once Mind Upload VR is there i can actually see science progressing much faster, because if you have a processor that can simulate one conciousness and be loaded 10%, you can either put 9 more people on it, or you could speed up time 10x, so the mind that is researching new technology will experience 10x more time than real time and be done with research much faster.
Or you could store yourself on disk and wait 1000 years to have science catch up.Really? If I could upload my mind, one of the biggest things I’d want to do is explore the real universe. Upload digital people into probes and suddenly we can actually travel the stars.
I like holding my wife and daughter too much for this to be truly tempting.
What if they were there with you?
It all the depends on the how and the what.
First of all, if the virtual reality is able to replicate physical sensation indistinguishably from the physical world, it’s not virtual, then, is it? Then it’s just alternative reality. If that was the case, the only dilemma would be the implications to the physical world. Will your body still exist, or are we talking San Junipero here?
As long as there are implications to the real world, then I believe a significant percentage of people will not abandon it, because of empathy.
I personally would only live an alternative reality if there was no one I love back in the real world anymore, or if I were to die.
As for virtual reality in the realm of possibilities, there will always be something missing, as addictive as it may be, so there will always be something to bring you back to reality
As for just trying it, hell yeah! As long as there are no negative consequences physically that I know of before hand.
Absolutely plug me in and solder in the connection. Real life is a treadmill of misery.
Who’s going to pay the service costs to keep you in there uninterrupted?
Well, in a world that has technology this advanced, you could maybe make your body do actual work in the real world (controlled by your employer) but you would still experience the virtual world as op has explained.
Sounds like a black mirror outline. I shiver at the idea.
At that point it’d be a lot simpler and more sane to just pump yourself with insanely powerful happy drugs lol. At least you’d be in reality.
At least you’d be in reality
That’s the problem were trying to excape from.
If you’re on happy drugs, then why still try to escape it?
It’s a dystopian extension of what it could be if society continued on a bad path. In truth I’d absolutely hope that there would be better options at that point, because society is better. Right now, drugs are simpler and maybe even saner than engaging with reality fully.
Yeah, it’s disconcerting to consider, but it actually sounds quite nice to me. Let my body work and be productive while my mind is happy and free. If you’re only really experiencing the latter, what does it matter what your body is doing (as long as it remains safe and healthy)? Particularly if you stay in that virtual reality permanently.
Lets hope I can dialate my perception of time and block out the outside world or its going to be a short life.
I would love to immerse myself in the digital worlds like in Ready Player One. You could live in the cheapest and shittiest place possible but still have a blast with your virtual avatar and haptic suit. But, instead, we got the Metaverse with Zuck’s low res trees and Eiffel tower lol
I’d be a thousand percent down if I didn’t think it’d be a subscription service that only exists to exploit me
Once I can pick and choose my body and change it on a whim, and it feels like my body, Im gonna end up staying in VR unhealthily much.
Even with the tech we have today, when I first used VR and selected a body for something like VRChat, I started feeling like the body was my own. You know the “fake hand” experiment? Something like that. But the illusion is quickly destroyed as soon as I touch something or movement dont match up. And the effect gets weaker for each time.
It was such a cool feeling. I want it again.
You are actually describing my “ideal” world as I outlined here!
My vision is heavily inspired by Terence McKenna. I imagine a world as it might have existed during prehistoric times. Lush forests teeming with exotic wildlife, clean air, and crystal clear water. No highways full of billboards, no parking lots, no shopping malls, and no cars. Just safe grounds and paths for humans embedded deep within all of this nature. At a birds-eye view, it may look as if humanity has completely abandoned technology and regressed back into its childhood. Yet if you were to look out through the eyes of one of these utopian people, you would see the most wonderful augmented reality display. Information, communication, entertainment, education, global economies… almost everything has been de-materialized. Humanity’s ceaseless pursuit of technology has been mostly divorced from our physical environment and mother earth is bustling with life again. The only technologies that remain in the real world are those that help all of us live happy and healthy lives (modern medicine, delicious food, solar power, etc) all the while the shared virtual reality in our eyes is limited only by our collective imaginations. We are finally living in accord with nature without having to forsake our innate desire for knowledge and progress.
Corporations: not on our watch!
A very cool vision, but people would still have to live and grow food somewhere, and generate absurd amounts of energy. Assuming we can do vertical hydroponics and cold fusion, the centers of human civilization could be massive, but isolated and surrounded by unspoiled nature.
The question, then, is what stops people from multiplying endlessly and covering the planet in fusion-fueled mega-structures?
Our declining birth rate, presumably
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I’m greedy, I’d like more than one please
Education in the form of a cultivated social desire to live in harmony with our planet and not overpopulate it? I’m really not sure! I know I’m a romantic but a boy can dream. There has to be a more sustainable way for humans to live on earth though. Virtualization or dematerialization is the most realistic way for us to have our cake and eat it too.
This idea of complete control over your reality reminds me of the book/novella The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect. Suffice it to say the story suggests that such a reality would ultimately be meaningless.
I would say it sounds great though, even if eventually it gets really depressing.
Been a while since I’ve seen that referenced! Glad it’s still up.
I did not read the book, but I can imagine it being interesting for a bit. I don’t know how would someone react to something like this however.
Maybe it can become meaningless, tho maybe if people still need to get into the real world to work, maybe it would become a way to escape the real world.
Which would make that once you get out in the real world, life may seem bad and depressing compared to that virtual world.
It would maybe generate undesirable effects and people would be in that reality for days (ex : what was imagined in Ready Player One). Create an increase in depressions and suicide rates…
Yes, I would want to resist it. Life is about ups and downs, and I think the better idea would be to have an open-source augmented reality, maybe through glasses that you wear or contacts on your eyes, that can project shared images, like virtual props that everyone else can see, or just act as a VR HMD and replace all your vision with a virtual world for a while.
But bodily autonomy is very important, give people a choice and let them be informed by publishing the source code, PCB diagrams and all that kinda stuff so they know how it works and that they’re not being controlled.
Here is an article on a book of a professor of philosophy and neural science about this subject :
We are in a virtual world.
Continuous macro geometry which suddenly converts to discrete units when free agents interact or observe it?
Sounds a lot like how we’re currently building voxel-based procedurally generated worlds where a continuous seed function determines geometry which is converted into discrete units to be able to track state changes by free agents to what’s initially determined by the seed function.
We even have sync conflicts and lazy optimization in how it handles tracking these changes.
So to your question - are you able to resist the allure of this world? Should you? Does it being virtual or not change whether or not there is meaning in your life?
Though I’m not really interested in being a king of my own universe. I’d much rather be a traveler through the universe of another. And I suspect there’s much more interesting universes out there than simply an educational sim of what life was like in the late stages of humanity and the establishment of what came next, so I’m game to explore.
Also, the creation and variety of virtual worlds we are creating and will continue to create is very much part of the narrative of this reality. And so while traveling through this virtual world, I’m certainly keen on exploring its precursors. We’ve already come a long way from Pong.
At the same time, I’m not a fan of replaying things, so while I am curious and look forward to whatever is the next world in my queue, I think it’s important to take time to appreciate the one I’m in at the moment, as I am certainly am never coming back to this shit hole, as beautiful and majestic as its entropy driven ‘design’ can be in moments.
As with most things, balance is generally a good way to go.
