• qfe0@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    1 year ago

    For the love of everything, at least let’s stop decommissioning serviceable nuclear plants.

      • uis@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        *looking intensifies*

        Maybe it was Putin’s sabotage?

        Upd: nah, his mentality of 90-ies gang member doesn’t allow him to think this far.

        • Claidheamh@slrpnk.net
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          1 year ago

          Why does it need to be astroturfing? It’s the same point the young climate activist in the article is making.

        • Uncaged_Jay@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          “Someone has a dissenting opinion it must be ASTROTURFING AAAAAHHHHHHH”-You for some reason…

        • C_Spinoff@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          This is so pathetic to look at, tons of accounts piling more upvotes on each other than a regular day at lemmy in total and constantly congratulating each other on their oh so based opinions. Bloody clown show, totally organic and not astroturfed at all.
          Just a bit funny it looks exactly the same on each social media they pop out all of a sudden. “I am advocating for clean nuclear energy since school, derp”

          • wooki@lemmynsfw.com
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            1 year ago

            Nothing to worry about. Just sit back relax and rejoice in the rollout of more coal and gas power plants. That’s the reality.

          • Lev_Astov@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Haven’t you been around Reddit before this? The overwhelming opinion is pro-nuclear and nothing has changed here.

    • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      My understanding is that they eventually become unserviceable as they age, because of mechanical/structular reasons, or because the costs of servicing them is so prohibitive that they are unserviceable economically.

      That they definitely have a begin, middle, and end, life cycle.

        • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Buildings and machinery fatigue and wear out over time.

          And highly critical uptime devices and buildings need extra maintenance and upkeep.

          Old sites need to be decommissioned. Even if you ignore the financial costs in the upkeep at some point they just fatigue to the point of needing to be replaced.

          I’m not anti-nuclear, all I’m saying is if you want nuclear you have to build new sites, you can’t keep the old sites going forever.

          • supercriticalcheese@feddit.it
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            1 year ago

            Rotating equipment are replaceable is not that much of an issue they operate on regular steam.

            Buildings are reinforced concrete unlikely to be a concern not in a reasonable timeframe unless rebars corrode for some reason.

            Issue would be items operating with water directly in contact with the reactor, so critical piping, heat exchangers and reactor vessels, which I can’t say I am an expert specifically for nuclear plants.

            I imagine the main concern would be the reactor itself as all reat can be replaced.

            • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Not to argue minutia, as it doesn’t take away from my correct point, but I was speaking specifically of the reactor and it’s housing and the building around it. A reactor when it’s built has a pre-planned age limit to it.

              • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                We can do calculations to evaluate them. If someone creates a fairly accurate or at least conservative stimulation of the reactor and housing, a mechanical engineer should be able to determine if it’s still good for operation or needs replacement. They use ASME code and tables to do life fraction calculations.

                • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  Fair enough. This article basically covers both the points you are making, as well as the point that I am making.

                  For the record, I believe that the longer we can use things the better. But the fatigue that a reactor takes due to radiation damage (described in the article) would make it seem like a reactor has a definate finate expiration date, like most mechanical devices we humans make. Its just a matter of how much you want to push things, how much of a safety margin you want, etc.

                  • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
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                    1 year ago

                    Most things operating in industrial processes are going to have finite lifespans with the heats and stresses that are applied to them 24/7, plus in this case radiation. You’re completely right about safety margin too. I used to run these simulations for mechanical engineers, and they’d always apply some safety factor. The challenge is is making sure that you’re getting the most out of the material while still not compromising on safety.

                    All of that said, the analysis relies on tabulated data from the ASME code. I doubt they have the data necessary on radiation deterioration to do these detailed calcs. Assuming they don’t, I think you’re right that it would be prudent to retire them at this point.

          • Claidheamh@slrpnk.net
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            1 year ago

            Nothing lasts forever, that’s true. But it’s not the incisive observation one might think. NPPs are some of the power sources with the longest service lives.

            • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              NPPs are some of the power sources with the longest service lives.

              True, but they do have finite life spans, they do have end-of-life dates. They cannot be maintained and operated forever.

              There may be some debate on how long they can go before they need to be decommissioned, but it is understood they all need to be decommissioned at some point, because they will fail catastrophically if they don’t.

              And they are one of the, if not the most important, structures that we should be more safe than sorry about, and decommissioned them earlier rather than at the last moment, for safety reasons.

              • Claidheamh@slrpnk.net
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                1 year ago

                all need to be decommissioned at some point, because they will fail catastrophically if they don’t.

                This is false, that idea comes from decades of anti-science fearmongering. They need to be decommissioned for the same reasons as everything else, they just become too expensive to maintain. Same as every other energy source, including renewables.

                • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  This is false, it’s fearmongering. They need to be decommissioned for the same reasons as everything else, they just become too expensive to maintain. Same as every other energy source, including renewables.

                  No, it’s not fear mongering. The pressure that the metals of the reactor are put under from the radiation is a real thing, it causes damage and fatigue.

                  At some point they’re decommissioned because if you keep them running they’ll have catastrophic failures, which besides the loss of life and land, would be a great expense to the operators of the plant.

                  Go read that article that I linked in a different one of my comments in this same conversation, as it has some details about that.

                  • Claidheamh@slrpnk.net
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                    1 year ago

                    The pressure that the metals of the reactor are put under from the radiation is a real thing, it causes damage and fatigue.

                    Yes.

                    they’re decommissioned because if you keep them running they’ll have catastrophic failures, which besides the loss of life and land

                    No. This is the fearmongering part. A nuclear plant that is past its service life doesn’t just turn into Chernobyl.

                    I don’t know what article you’re talking about, but I’m pretty sure it won’t trump my years of university education on this.

      • havokdj@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        That is what taxes are for. God forbid government officials have to cut into their overinflated bonuses to keep a major source of energy in service.

        • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Even if you ignore capitalism, at some point they fatigue and break to the point where they cannot be repaired, but need to be replaced.

          • havokdj@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            You don’t have to demo a whole building to replace a machine. When they need to be replaced, replace it.

            Money is literally the only excuse here. Greed is what prevents us from advancing, it’s the reason we never switched from coal and why we are likely not going to last another 100 years. The old rich fuckers don’t care, they aren’t going to live that long anyways, and their children are going to be rich enough that even their descendants 10 generations from now will live comfortably in the hell we are turning the planet into.

            • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              No, it’s not just about greed. The reactor itself, it’s housing, and equipment around it have a definite lifetime to them, no matter how much you’d wish otherwise.

              Better to decommission before it becomes unsafe, and build a next gen better new one.

      • uis@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Disproven by Russia. Maybe sometimes core is replaced because it uses unsafe design by current standards like in St. Petesburg.

        • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Russia isn’t really known for their safety rules. A lot of those reactors are running way past their expiration and are deteriorating past the point where they should be running.

          It’s a finite fact. A reactor has a lifetime to it, then it needs to be replaced. Unlike other mechanical devices/engines it can’t be serviced because of the radiation involved.

          • uis@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Russia isn’t really known for their safety rules.

            Agreed except nuclear. After Chernobyl there were no Nuclear Power Plant accidents in any post-Soviet country. Iven the scale of corruption in country I’m surprised.

            A lot of those reactors are running way past their expiration and are deteriorating past the point where they should be running.

            It depends how you define expiration. ISS expired like 4 times if not more. For example St. Petesburg NPP still has 2 РБМК-1000(same as in Chernobyl, but modernized) built in 1980(and 1981). Both are planned to be decommisioned in 2025.

            Unlike other mechanical devices/engines it can’t be serviced because of the radiation involved.

            If reactors were unservicable, then there would be no need in NPP personel.

            • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Both are planned to be decommisioned in 2025.

              My point exactly. They have planned decommissioned dates because they cannot be serviced and maintained safely forever.

              Unlike other mechanical devices/engines it can’t be serviced because of the radiation involved.

              If reactors were unservicable, then there would be no need in NPP personel.

              I disagree. During the lifetime operation of a plant they need personnel, it’s not an All or Nothing thing. They don’t just turn off the lights and shut the door and all walk out.

              Hell, even after a plant starts it’s decommission plan, which can take 10 to 20 years, they still need personnel.