“We believe the prerequisite for meaningful diplomacy and real peace is a stronger Ukraine, capable of deterring and defending against any future aggression,” Blinken said in a speech in Finland, which recently became NATO’s newest member and shares a long border with Russia.
It’s actually upsetting to read some people defend an illegal war of aggression in this thread. Just practice the golden rule for a change and imagine yourself being in the same situation. What if it was your country being invaded? Would you take up arms to defend your family, your friends, your neighbors? The bombs are dropping everywhere, and you have to hide in basements to prevent their terror attacks from taking away all that you hold dear.
Of course a country being invaded has the right to defend themselves and the right to fight back. The aggressors could end this war immediately but they wont because their leader is an insular autocrat. Isolating himself and giving orders without considering the best for the rest of the world. Devaluing human life from on top of a pedestal. This is the danger what happens when one single individual gains too much power and the rest of the world needs to be unanimously against it regardless of blind idealism.
Straight up. Israel and Ukraine are under constant attack these days and absolutely not be criticized for defending themselves even if they don’t always go about it exactly the right way.
Are you seriously comparing an apartheid state to a country that’s a victim of an invasion? Is Israel “defending itself” when it slaughters Palestinian children?
Have you ever been there? Do you know what apartheid actually means? Every single Palestinian without citizenship doesn’t have it only because they refused. And furthermore, in 2005 Israel actually forced its own citizens out of the Gaza strip, whole family’s dislocated at gunpoint by their own government. And when the Palestinians moved in, the terrorists among them tore down the infrastructure and somehow convinced their brethren that the Israelis were to blame. Israel is not the one who’s indiscriminately shooting rockets from hospitals and schoolyards. Israel is not the one encouraging citizens to enter houses of worship and go on killing sprees. Israel is not the one who is encouraging and applauding suicide bombers attacking bus stops and pizza shops. Israel is the one who is sending out texts and dropping leaflets warning people to get out of buildings that they suspect are housing military equipment used to attack them before bombing said buildings. It is easily within Israel’s capability set to kill every last Palestinian and I imagine just about any other country put through what Israel’s been put through would be a lot more aggressive. They aren’t always in the right. There are things they have done wrong. But an apartheid state they are not.
Forgot to mention, the terrorists in charge of the Gaza strip also diverted equipment meant to be used for construction and instead chose to use it to dig tunnels to get through to Israel to carry out attacks and kidnappings.
I’m sorry, how do you think YOU would behave if your homeland were colonized? You’d just politely ask the colonizers to leave until they felt bad enough for you to listen? Not everything Palestinians do to fight back is good or justified, but they’re clearly the victims in this scenario.
Half of children in Gaza are suicidal. HALF. 60% self-harm, and 80% are depressed. Are you cool with that? Because that is directly Israel’s doing.
To be clear, Israel is not a unique evil. The US and China are at least as bad. But Israel is not magically exempt from criticism, nor is it remotely comparable to Ukraine.
Israel are not colonizers though. Israel is one of the indigenous people finally returning to their homeland. You can say they should share and I agree but the immediate attempt at their annihilation right when they were established definitely indicated that many of their neighbors were not keen on sharing nicely. It’s awful that the children in Gaza are suffering but the blame for that lies with the terrorists who use those children as human shields, tore down the infrastructure, and diverted construction materials meant for humanitarian aid to be used to enable further terrorist attacks, not the country that forced it’s own citizens out and left a fully functioning set of infrastructure for the new inhabitants.
Edit- I was hoping to get away from Reddit culture of disagree=downvote and was looking forward to productive respectful discussions here. So far it seems not to be working out but maybe we can still turn it around
If white Americans today went back to Europe and forcibly displaced the people living there, they would be colonizers. It doesn’t matter that they can trace their lineage back to that location. The idea that blood links you to land is nonsense.
Jesus Christ, how much Israeli propaganda have you been drinking? I don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about, but even assuming that’s all true, whose fault is it that people there needed humanitarian aid in the first place? Try reading sources on Palestinians that don’t have a pro-Israel agenda sometime.
My instance disables downvotes, so I can neither downvote you nor see your negative score, but good. I’m glad you’re getting downvoted. That’s exactly what uncritically regurgitated propaganda deserves.
How much Palestinian propaganda have you been reading? Americans weren’t forcibly expelled to begin with and even if they were they haven’t been actively demonstrably yearning and attempting to return ever since so the analogy fails on two counts. A third count as well actually because Americans haven’t had bigotry, prosecution, and murder sprees and mobs and pogroms constantly plaguing them everywhere they’ve been since they left europe.
Regarding the downvotes- good to know although ironically you are the person who would uld be least wrong to downvote me. You’re at least articulating what you disagree with than giving a cowardly anonymous thumbs down like those who have been downvoting.
I would flee from the front line and I recommend everybody else do the same. Why get involved when states fight over their sphere of influence? Ukraine isn’t a state worth giving your life for. US imperial hegemony (a major reason for this conflict) should not be supported. They will abuse any support given to further their own goals and throw you (or anyone) under the bus when convenient.
Hard agree with Blinken here.
honestly, i can’t see how any reasonable person wouldn’t.
edit: russia has proven, repeatedly, that they don’t honor their agreements. the only way that they won’t invade again is if they’re kicked out and if Ukraine has a modern military fully capable of kicking russia’s ass if it tries again.
Ha, the local tankies are starting to find out that they’re outnumbered by reddit-fuges. Still, I believe that barring a negotiated peace, the war will continue for many, many years. The alternatives are either Russian withdraw and/or regime change or Ukrainian collapse, and neither seem likely in the near future. Even Kissinger, which is as blood-thirsty as they come, has suggested a negotiated peace, and it’s hard to imagine a negotiation that doesn’t concede something to Russia. The question isn’t a moral one. The deaths will continue to pile up until negotiation begins.
look, no reasonable person wants war-- but that’s the problem: those who started the war and are continuing it aren’t being reasonable. And they’re not going to negotiate any sort of peace if they don’t get what they wanted by stating the war in the first place: a slice of Ukraine. so, also believe there won’t be any peace until Russia leaves Ukraine, and that may take years to convince them to do-- at the barrel of a gun, sadly. Possibly a Russian regime change.
as for the local tankies… i don’t know how much of that you read, but when attempts at rational arguments failed, they just resorted to personal attacks and bullying, which is nothing foreign to me. battle-hardened with the most toxic of reddit trolls, it just rolls of my back. :P
I initially joined lemmy about 2 years ago, and the place was swamped with them. They have their own instance they hide out on, which lemmy.ml federates with but beehaw.org and sopuli.xyz do not. It will be interesting to see how the lemmy landscape evolves as time passes on.
yeah… i have an account on both lemmy.ml, and on beehaw.org. currently, I’m sticking with lemmy.ml just because I want to see more content, and I think I an handle the shitty people due to having a think skin, but it’s nice to know that there are nicer instanes, should i need to deal with it on those terms.
Is there a way to block an entire instance in Lemmy like you can with mastodon? Or to just hide all the posts from them?
This thread has made me realize how insufferable they are
Ukraine will at least need to make some sort of compromise over the port at Sevastopol. From what I understand, that’s the only port available for Russia’s Black Sea fleet. Russia has historically held a naval base there and would likely be unyielding on that point. Forcing Russia to butt out is one thing, but them losing significant amounts of their defense capability is another.
heh, I’m sure Russia very much feels this way, but I don’t see how Ukraine needs to make any compromises at all, nor why Russia should be given the opportunity to save any face. They got themselves into this mess and have done some terrible things. They deserve to crawl away with their tails between their legs with nothing to show for it. Why should they get anything after what they’ve done?
I fully agree that Russia crawling away with their tail between their legs would be the ideal solution. But at what price? Russia would be willing to spill a lot of blood over that base, even compared to an already bloody war. The reality is that starting negotiations with the assumption that the end agreement will include guarantees around Sevastopol will save a lot of lives without making a huge change from the 2014 status quo.
I’d love to see it, but that’s just petty vengeance on my part, wanting to see a bully punished.
I don’t know if a humiliated Russia is an ideal solution. The humiliation of Germany after WW I greatly contributed to the rise of Hitler, and we don’t want to see a repeat of that.
An ideal solution IMHO would be regime change, a complete withdrawl to pre-2014 borders, and full blame placed on Putin and his staunchest cronies, allowing the general public and even his supporting public to save face. The story that he lied to and misled the public might alleviate some humiliation at the withdrawal. Something like how WW II was handled should be the model: defeat of the previous regime, strict laws banning the worst behaviors leading to Putin’s dictatorship, curtailing corruption, and strong investment and rebuilding of Russian society by the victors. People tend to forget hurt egos more easily when they’re prosperous.
Whipping the dog that bit you doesn’t make a safer dog.
Edit: PS, it’s easy for me to say this. I have no friends or family raped, tortured or murdered by Russians. I have had no children abducted into re-education camps. If it happened yo me, I’d want a blood bath, a murderous swath cut through Russia to the Kremlin. I understand and sympathize with Ukrainians who want this. I’m just saying that, unless you’re commited to genocide, it’s more likely to come back around in an endless cycle of vengeance.
Speaking of the Marshall Plan, it had considerable push back at the time. It took a Soviet backed coup in Czechoslovakia in 1948 for Americans to realize that leaving Europe starved and in tatters would push Europe into the arms of the Soviets. The Marshall Plan was a relatively cheap way to win battles before they ever occurred.
Russia will not, of course, be the same as post-WW2 Nazi Germany. The victors must be Russians, not outsiders. But Westerners should be willing to give freely, maybe with some basic stipulations around rule of law so Russia doesn’t fall back into being a dictatorial kleptocracy that threatens its neighbors.
Perhaps an option could be that Ukraine gets their land back, but there’s some agreement that Russia can rent out the land around the port at Sevastopol.
Ukraine gets paid for the use of their land (and ultimately they still own it), and Russia gets exclusive access to that part of the port where they can do whatever they need.
Yeah, that’s basically what I’m suggesting, plus security guarantees to avoid a repeat conflict. Before 2014, Russia was renting out the base.
Interesting, I didn’t realize that Russia was already renting out the base pre-2014. Thank you for that context.
It’s probably why Russia invaded Crimea in the first place. Otherwise it’s not all that useful.
Or you know it could be that Crimea is primarily populated by Russians and the regime the west installed after the coup was actively doing pogroms against Russian speaking people in Ukraine.
Imperialism is bad even when it’s not the USA doing it.
Ukraine absolutely deserves our support in this war.
Supporting Ukraine is the only U.S. military action since WW2 that I can truly support. Even our action in response to 9/11 was fucked up.
Same, its one of the only decisions the US has made that is pretty solidly good.
This has been a major reality check for me personally. For years I shook my head at the gargantuan US military budget thinking it’s ridiculous. Fast forward to February 2022 and I realize it’s the US once again cleaning up when Europe shits the bed. Ashamed, thankful and thoroughly convinced we need to spend a whole lot more in defense as well.
Idk about all that. The US has supported Ukraine and I support that. But Europe has stepped up to the plate too. While US refused to provide long range HIMARS, UK provided Storm Shadow. Poland has donated about all it has. Realistically, the US could drastically reduce it’s defense spending, provide all the support Ukraine could want, and still maintain the largest military force by a large margin.
Well that’s what I’m saying. European countries are giving all they’ve got to give while the US hardly breaks a sweat, yet the US provides a disproportionately large amount compared to the rest. Europe would be in a lot more trouble without the US, once again.
And I agree the UK deserves a lot of credit for pushing the envelope with tanks and long range and being the security provider for Sweden and Finland during the application process.
I think we mostly agree. I just disagree with your claim that the US should spend more on Defense.
I didn’t say the US should spend more, but Europe. Speaking as a European. E: trying to see if editing helps this federate.
Amazing that you understand that your country has consistently been on the wrong side of history since WW2, but also believe this this is the first time it’s not.
What’s wrong with helping a country defend itself from invasion by imperial warmongers?
And to be clear, yes, I am calling Russia imperial warmongers. They have been actively invading neighboring countries for decades to expand themselves. And what is an empire if not a nation built on the conquest of other countries?
That is absolutely not what the west is doing. Ukraine is being used as a proxy to weaken Russia using the formula that RAND outlined here. All the west is accomplishing is prolonging the conflict and it will not change the outcome. Anybody who thinks this is being done for the benefit of Ukraine is absolutely delusional.
Maybe people living in the west should focus on stopping their empire from conquering countries before getting on their high horse.
Nah, I prefer to stop countries from annexing pieces of other countries.
The US hasn’t annexed anything since 1959, and I was born too late to stop that. But Russia can’t help itself, and even gives youngsters a chance to oppose annexation.
Maybe you should figure out how to stop your own regime from invading countries before playing world police then. US is literally occupying part of Syria as we speak. Just how ignorant are you exactly?
There are far more Russian troops in Syria. I choose the lesser evil.
The legitimate government of Syria invited Russia to help it defend itself against the US regime, but do go on.
It’s really sad how duped American citizens are here. They truly believe that when changing their bio pics to a Ukraine Flag that they’re doing something. They believe their government has the best interest of Ukraine while what they’re actually supporting is their government using Ukrainian bodies to weaken an adversary under the guise of defense. No one learned anything after Iraq, it was mere MONTHS ago that liberals were giving BUSH praise! They don’t care about Abu Ghraib or what happened in Guantanamo Bay. A lot of people here are in for a rough awakening.
I’m confused. Do you think Russia taking Ukraine by force is what’s best for Ukraine? Do you think their people are volunteering to fight because they just don’t know what’s best for them? Even if Ukrainians wanted to maintain independence out of some misguided patriotism, isn’t it their right as a sovereign nation to decide that?
From the US perspective, Ukraine wanted to join NATO, aligning themselves with us. Then Russia invaded. If the US didn’t support Ukraine, the world would know they can prevent a weaker country from joining NATO by invading. After Iraq and Afghanistan, there’s no desire to send US troops but we can provide weapons and intelligence.
Weapons, intelligence and Ukrainian bodies are an extremely cheap deal to weaken an adversary, don’t you think?
When it comes to wanting oil though, US and Iraqi bodies aren’t so important. As long as you can dupe your own citizens into believing there’s WMD’s, it doesn’t matter.
And of course Ukraine knows what’s best for them. That’s why they keep asking for a roadmap to NATO but the US is like “Nah” - https://www.ft.com/content/c37ed22d-e0e4-4b03-972e-c56af8a36d2e
So of course they’re left to negotiate. Again, the US Government doesn’t care but their citizens think they do.
The US is against peace if it doesn’t get more money to the military–industrial complex or if it doesn’t weaken an adversary, like in this case.
By volunteered to fight you mean being abducted on the street, beaten, and sent to die?
The people of Ukraine have told the world what their best interest is: removing Russian soldiers from their land, by force if necessary.
The US is only interested in Ukraine when their goals align. Everyone knows this, including most Americans and most Ukrainians.
However, it turns out that US and Ukrainian goals do, in fact, align. The US isn’t “using” Ukraine any more than Ukraine is “using” the US. They are openly cooperating to achieve a common interest.
The Ukrainian people are being kidnapped off the street and sent to die by the regime US installed in Ukraine after overthrowing a democratically elected government. Most Ukrainians don’t want to have a war and have their lives destroyed. The only people who want this war are ghouls living in the west who aren’t personally affected by it.
Tankies can always be counted on to project the worst in themselves.
There are hundreds of thousands of Russians in Georgia and Kazakhstan who can explain which side is kidnapping young men off the street and sending them to die for a war they care nothing about. Meanwhile, opinion polls of Ukrainians consistently show that an overwhelming majority want to continue the war until Russians are defeated.
Americans are subject to the best propaganda machine that money can buy, and people running the regime are certainly getting their money’s worth.
Russia was also on the wrong side of history since WW2. When two losers face off, logically one or the other must break their losing streak.
And as it turns out, the US gets the win. Congratulations.
It wasn’t, and if you think US is winning anything here then you’re completely delusional. Life is going to get really hard for you in the coming years.
Just like your leader once promised “we will bury you”. That was in 1959. He was delusional then, you are delusional today.
The coming years will be fine for the US, but not necessarily for Russia.
Bunch of people keep talking about how the US shouldn’t broker peace deals and China should. Hypocrisy at its finest.
The fact is, having a third party nation recommendation for peace or no peace is a standard for centuries, and if that nation is a global hegemony with nuclear weapons, then it makes sense.
People want the war could end, but US won’t let it. What hypocrisy?
people want the war to end
Russia clearly doesn’t. In fact they were the ones who started it
Ukraine started the war in 2014 by shelling civilians in the donnbass
It was Ukraine that violated the Minsk Accords not Russia
Do I understand it correctly, that “total withdrawal” is giving back the regions that agreed to be with Russia, alongside getting the troops back?
You mean that separatist regions that got installed by Russia and would already have lost without the Russian troops intervention in 2014 - 2015? That regions that have a government of brutal former criminals (that brutally oppressed every opposition)? Yes those too. If the people really want to be part of Russia, they can ask for a fair referendum with international observers after Russia fucked off.
Let’s take a look at a few slides from this lecture that Mearsheimer gave back in 2015 to get a bit of background on the subject. Mearsheimer is certainly not pro Russian in any sense, and a proponent of US global hegemony. First, here’s the demographic breakdown of Ukraine:
here’s how the election in 2004 went:
this is the 2010 election:
As we can clearly see from the voting patterns in both elections, the country is divided exactly across the current line of conflict. Furthermore, a survey conducted in 2015 further shows that there is a sharp division between people of eastern and western Ukraine on which economic bloc they would rather belong to:
And we can see a few interesting facts about Crimea in a US government study. First thing to note is that it was never part of Ukraine proper. US government referred to it as the Autonomous Republic of Crimea. Second thing to note is that majority of the people in Crimea do not consider themselves Ukrainian, and the biggest demographic considers themselves Russian:
And finally, here are some facts, as documented by western media, about the regime in Ukraine that you’re evidently supporting
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHhGEiwCHZE
- https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30414955
- https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28329329
- https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/2021-05-04/ty-article/.premium/ukrainian-official-changes-tune-on-unacceptable-march-honoring-ss-unit/0000017f-e0e2-d7b2-a77f-e3e7ee990000
- https://www.ft.com/content/7191ec30-9677-423d-873c-e72b64725c2d
- https://consortiumnews.com/2022/12/29/on-the-influence-of-neo-nazism-in-ukraine/
- https://consortiumnews.com/2022/12/29/evidence-of-us-backed-coup-in-kiev/
- https://gordonhahn.com/2015/05/02/ukraines-neo-fascist-right-sector-claims-responsibility-again-for-2-may-2014-terrorist-pogrom/
- http://www.errc.org/news/anti-roma-pogroms-in-ukraine-on-c14-and-tolerating-terror
that’s some impressive mental gymnastics for supporting an illegal invasion and nothing you said changes that. if these people don’t like living in Ukraine, they can leave. That doesn’t excuse Russia for invading another sovereign nation, and Ukraine has every right to defend itself.
it reminds me of this:
“DARVO is an acronym used to describe a common strategy of abusers. The abuser will: Deny the abuse ever took place, then Attack the victim for attempting to hold the abuser accountable; then they will lie and claim that they, the abuser, are the real victim in the situation, thus Reversing the Victim and Offender.”
The only people doing mental gymnastics here are the ones who genuinely believe that the west is helping Ukraine defend itself as opposed to destroying Ukraine in a proxy war with Russia. You are all going to have a lot of soul searching to do at the end of all this.
Wow, your maps are so persuasive!
I’m excited to report that I just looked at map of Kosovo, it shows almost the same thing! That region is full of people who consider themselves ethnic Albanians who don’t support Serbia in the slightest.
I guess that means that you must support the annexation of Kosovo to Albania, by force if necessary, right? I mean, because otherwise that would mean that you are nothing more than a reflexive, anti-West stooge and there’s no way that could be possible.
If people in Kosovo actually want to join Albania then they should be able to. Last I checked though, there are plenty of Serbs living there who recently clashed with NATO troops. You want to remind me why that happened?
Because the PM of Kosovo was an idiot. Fortunately he now seems to be willing to change his plans.
“i know you are but what am I?” is the argument of a child, and pretending that the west helping Ukraine is the same as Russia bombing it to bits is treating your audience like children.
believe it or not, not everyone is as foolish as you.
The west is not helping Ukraine, and the fact that people in the west continue to pretend that’s the case if absolutely sickening. And you’ve demonstrated beyond all doubt that you are far more foolish than me.
The west is not helping Ukraine
so you say, but in every demonstrable way, we are, including by every claim made by their government and the plurality of their people. and it’s pretty hilarious that you claim to be some authority to make claims to the contrary. The only ones who would claim otherwise are Russia and their supporters, of which you are clearly one.
so, why should anyone take your positions seriously?
Wait, I thought Ukraine was a sovereign, independent state. That’s what the media been screeching about for over a year. Now it is saying USA is deciding their foreign policy?
Funny that
how is expressing an opinion equate to “deciding their foreign policy”?
edit: other than speaking the obvious, of course
Here are some gentlemen “expressing an opinion”.
It’s Schrödinger’s regime in Ukraine that’s both completely independent and does exactly what its western masters tell it to do.
Translation: Blinken says that US wants to drag the war out as long as possible.
*as long as is necessary. russia can withdraw whenever it likes.
Just like Afghanistan.
not in any way like afghanistan
You’re right, US is going to pull out after only two years instead of 20.
pull out of what? we’re not in. we have no troops over there like we did in afganistan.
Pull out of the proxy war that US engineered and is currently fuelling. This war will be over as soon as US stops pouring billions into it.
“Over” with Putin having gotten what he wants after killing millions of Ukrainians and still occupying their land. So no, fuck Putin and fuck anyone who supports his insane bloody quest for glory.
buddy, you don’t know what you’re talking about.
